Pentex Subversion poll and discussion

Pentex is fine as it is, played at the correct time/situation it *can* be a devastating card - so can many others. It is a gross exaggeration to say that it's an auto-include or that every deck needs to be designed with this card in mind. Many decks I design ignore it altogether - just as I might choose to ignore combat or vote defense - when you do so, it is at your own peril but not because the card is overly powerful, but because it is good. Ignoring anything has risk involved, there are many decks which can ignore this card or will be unaffected by it unless played at an ideal time.

Pentex has too much impact on large cap or star vampire decks. One card shutting down whole deck categories is just not good for the game.

There are plenty cards that completely shut down certain decks. As a result those decks need to play very specific defense against those cards. Superstar decks, which are IMO a weak archtype to begin with for more reasons than just Pentex, should be no different.

Like it or not, pentex is needed in vtes.

It is needed to get through that Lazverinus with eternal vigilance, bowl and abbot your prey just set up.

It is needed to lock that Enkidu behind you for a turn , so you can go forward a little...

the whole table needs it when that turbo decks starts to loop its cycle.

As harsh, and powerfull, and universally available it is, it is actually , IMHO, essential for table balance, and overall game balance.

That is how i see it, of course, your mileage may vary...

Maybe putting a counter each turn and burning the subversion at 3/5 counter ?

It would be enough to lunge your prey to death or win you some turns, but it would not shutdown completely a star deck - while still being a silver bullet for it.

Whenever I give just one example I now right away that people willjust argue about that one example and limit discussion down to it.

So some more stuff to say about Pentex:

1. In like ~80% of the times I see a Pentex played that just means the guy playing it gets a vp and saves tons of resources.

2. Many, many times a late game Pentex = Game Win. Firts dude to draw Pentex wins.

3. With many decks, not only the 11 cap ones, a Pentex on your first vampire will just cipple your deck and game so much that it is often hard to recover.

Giving +1 stealth to remove it won't change anything. Wall deck will still defend it, aggressive decks will still oust you the turn its played.

Actually I am not a fan of changing card texts at all. Best would be to leave the Pentex alone and just agree to with your playgroup that you stop playing with it in casuals.

But I wouldn't drop a single tear if it got banned though.

Ankha wrote:

Why aren't you (Mephistopheles) aware that playing a super-star deck is dangerous? You say "there is a problem with the card". I think it's more "I have a problem with the card".
Well, of course, you know it, and since you like to play super-star decks, you'd like any threat on this kind of deck to be removed. I don't think it's a good reason.

Sad to see this same old ad hominem again :/ It detracts from the actual meat of your argument, to which I respond that super-star decks should have a weakness but Pentex in it's current form is a terrible implementation. The pro-active super-star decks have enough weaknesses as it is.