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file Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

11 May 2014 08:08 #62175 by Brum
Replied by Brum on topic Re: Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set


This is the common practice now - I completely agree with Johannes.

However, it is not technically correct. Changing the rules/rulings to say you can do this would make the rules/rulings match reality, except in Paris.


And Portugal.
Up until now the rules were very clear for us:
-Discuss and deal BEFORE you show a card.
-Once you show the card, you declare the effects of the card and the targets.
Not other player may interfere up until he gets the impulse to DI/Sudden etc..

Following the rules does not take more time, as people stated here, because a Pentex is a Pentex and people don't need to see the card to know the consequences of having one in play.
Actually the time thing is not as I just wrote:
Not showing the card might add the time in the discussion of people trying to demote the player from playing it.
But that's the price of following the rules.
Same as stating out loud you're going to change phases in your turn.
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12 May 2014 05:23 #62201 by Decebalus
Replied by Decebalus on topic Re: Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

VTES is a game of negotiation and deal-making. Why are we trying to rule that out of the game?


Because we want negotiation and not silly tabletalk. You have to negotiate before you play the card, not afterwards.

With your interpretation we are opening the possibility to talk about every aspect. It is not "Do you bleed me?", it is: "Do you bleed me? You could bleed me with X so the bleed will fizzle. Why dont you bleed me with basic conditioning? Couldnt i block you, so you can play stealth, so that your bleed fizzles?"

That VTES can be a "game of negotiation and deal-making", it has to limit senseless table talk.

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12 May 2014 06:07 #62202 by johannes
Replied by johannes on topic Re: Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

A card is "played" once it's been moved from the hand to the limbo, and its targets (and whatever has to be chosen) have been declared.


The rulebook disagrees. A card is "played" once it´s been moved from the hand to the limbo. This triggers the declaring of targets/effects (by when clause) and then triggers the replacement of the card (by when clause).

Nitpick, but potentially interesting one. If you decide the card is played when revealed and target/effects declared (as an atomic operation) we should update the rulebook.

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12 May 2014 06:13 #62203 by johannes
Replied by johannes on topic Re: Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

I agree that once the card is showed, the terms/targets/etc. should be set without any conversation between players.

Seems awkward. Let´s say I reveal Pentex Subversion from my hand "I play P.S on .. hmm .. let me think". And then I think a minute or two on where to play (perfectly legal). Is the rest of the table just required to sit there in prayer-like silence?

In theory maybe an implementation of a solution, in reality awkward :)

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12 May 2014 08:17 #62207 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

Seems awkward. Let´s say I reveal Pentex Subversion from my hand "I play P.S on .. hmm .. let me think". And then I think a minute or two on where to play (perfectly legal).

That's where we disagree. If you have to think about where you're playing the pentex, you don't have to reveal it. Or you made some kind of (sanctionable ?) mistake. Or you're trying to get some illegal advantage from showing the card.
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12 May 2014 08:42 #62208 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

A card is "played" once it's been moved from the hand to the limbo, and its targets (and whatever has to be chosen) have been declared.


The rulebook disagrees. A card is "played" once it´s been moved from the hand to the limbo. This triggers the declaring of targets/effects (by when clause) and then triggers the replacement of the card (by when clause).


AFAIK in the VTES terminology, "when" does not imply sequentiality. "When" effects are simultaneous.
Contrary to "then" of "after" which imply sequentiality.

Nitpick, but potentially interesting one. If you decide the card is played when revealed and target/effects declared (as an atomic operation) we should update the rulebook.

It really depends how you read it. When I read the rulebook, I see it as an atomic operation.
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