Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

Ankha wrote:

johannes wrote:

Seems awkward. Let´s say I reveal Pentex Subversion from my hand "I play P.S on .. hmm .. let me think". And then I think a minute or two on where to play (perfectly legal).

That's where we disagree. If you have to think about where you're playing the pentex, you don't have to reveal it. Or you made some kind of (sanctionable ?) mistake. Or you're trying to get some illegal advantage from showing the card.

I fully agree.
You think before revealing the card. If someone calls the Judge, you can show him the card and state that it's a hard choice and you need some time.

The alternative might be you showing the card and, per instance, someone shouting "Don't put it on me! I won't bleed you next turn".
If I were in that table I would call the Judge.

You can still talk before you play the card.
That does not take anything away from the dealing / talking aspect of VtES.

Ankha wrote:

When I read the rulebook, I see it as an atomic operation.

This thread needs an atomic operation.

Ankha wrote:

AFAIK in the VTES terminology, "when" does not imply sequentiality. "When" effects are simultaneous.

It's a very interesting question. I consider "when" to mean "just after the time that":

From Merriam Webster English online dictionary:

when conjunction

: at or during the time that
: just after the time that
: at any or every time that

"When's" are sequential, not simultaneous. I would describe "when" as "immediately after" in the atomic sense . One effect can have multiple "when's". Simultaneous doesn't really work in VTES, although LSJ probably said some things were simultaneous.

It's one thing to say that no game effects can happen between an event and its subsequent "when", but is player conversation a game effect? I don't know how to enforce a rule that says "no conversation between showing a played card and the declaration of its effects". And saying "find the judge" is almost irrelevant: there is no judge on hand for the vast majority of games, even in a tournament. Let's talk about how players govern themselves.

johannes wrote:

I am not showing the card, I am playing it. Just taking a moment to think while I am playing it, or maybe I am just very slow generally.

Are you saying the rules govern when I can take some time to think and when not? Don´t you find that a bit ridiculous. How can the judge determine if someone is thinking?

Think about what you want to do before you do it. Then do it.