On Parity Shift 6. "problematic card".

Lech wrote:

Non-vote decks are less likely to play titled vampires, but some of them do.

I agree that in some case you can be completely hosed despite, or even because, you're sabbat with closed session instead of being camarilla with private audience.

Still, I believe that on average non-vote deck tend to play more camarilla title than sabbat title, for the reason I have exposed (I.E. black hand being untitled and prince trait being more often valuable than archbishop). Since, according to Bakija, it's pointless to play sabbat vote, you can reasonnably expect the sabbat version to be more often useful than the camarilla version.

As alway, "identical" effect in JCC are seldom symetrical or identical.

It's pretty redundant to come up with arguments how "generic" Sabbat vote decks have anything over "generic" Camarilla vote decks. Both decktypes function exactly the same, except that Cammies get Parity Shift and 2nd Trad. It's as simple as that. A few years ago, a big argument would be that Sabbat vampires tended to get better disciplines and specials, but that went out of the window with KoT. Just look at John Dee, Mary-Ann Blaire and the new Brujah Crypt and you're just going to be amazed how good they are compared to, say, Emerson Bridges, that 9-cap tremere price without auspex (Montoya something?) and Don Cruz.

It is, however, pointless is it to argue about how a "generic" vote deck that's Sabbat is always bad. A "generic" vote deck doesn't exist. People play all kinds of differently flavored vote decks for all kind of different reasons. Yes, !Tor breed/boon is a LOT better than Nos breed/boon, but Nos gets Parity Shift. Yes, Walter Nash can call Parity Shift, but Moncada/Polonia come with more tablevotes more tablebleed and a free untap. It's just crap that "every non-cammie deck with votes is better with princes because of Parity Shifts". They are different.

All that said, I don't think Parity Shift is broken. Yes, it's insanely powerful and if you get it off for 5 early you'll end up being a target. Interestingly enough, you still "only" hurt your prey for 5, while if Keith Moody plays Govern Conditioning in turn 1, everyone is like "ye man, sucks to be you, but that happens".

Ohlmann wrote:

Well, if like you say Sabbat vote is pure inefficiency, then the sabbat card is more powerful, since more camarilla vote deck are around. In addition, Prince is a more useful trait than archbishop so prince are more used simply being prince, and (without stat) I believe Sabbat tend to be less titled than camarilla (most notably, because Black hand never have native vote).

As noted previously, the usefulness of either Closed Session or Private Audience are both completely random--whether or not there are Camarilla votes or Sabbat Votes (or Independent votes) sitting on the table is a totally random factor. And there being random Priscus sitting on the table is just as likely as there being random Princes. In either case, as also previously noted, neither card is all that useful in the grand scheme. But that they are both functionally identical, and yet one of them costs blood while the other doesn't, is a kick in the teeth for no appreciable reason.

So, no, they does not the same thing.

Well, given that they do the same thing, yeah, they do.

(no comment over the "parity shift is overpowered" jazz, since it's the very same unconvincing argument as ever, and I have no new argument to add)

So why bring it up? If you have nothing to add, and the discussion bores you, stop having it.

bakija wrote:

As noted previously, the usefulness of either Closed Session or Private Audience are both completely random

Well, let's take a game, I roll a 6-faced dice, you win on 5 or 6, I win otherwise. It's completely random, you can win 10 or more time in a row, and still I have better odds than you.

It's the same thing here. If camarilla titled vampire appear more often, then the sabbat version is better. If sabbat tiled vampire appear more often, the reverse. While still in both case being an unreliable vote tech that can be useless.

It's contradictory to say at the same time that princes and camarilla vote are at a large advantage and that both card have the same effect.

Ohlmann wrote:

It's the same thing here. If camarilla titled vampire appear more often, then the sabbat version is better. If sabbat tiled vampire appear more often, the reverse. While still in both case being an unreliable vote tech that can be useless.

See, you seem to be basing this theory on the idea that there are multiple vote decks in every game. Which there aren't. Yes. If there *is* more than one vote deck at the table, odds are that Camarilla will be more prevalent (as Camarilla vote decks are just better than non Camarilla vote decks). What decks are sitting at a given table and happen to have vampires with votes when you want to use Closed Session or Private Audience is a completely random happenstance. Yes. Camarilla vote decks are better vote decks. But random Sabbat titles show up all the time. Random Laibon titles show up all the time. Random Independent titles show up all the time. In non vote themed decks. I see random Priscus titles in play constantly, as there are a lot of them on reasonably sized vampires that are good for things other than vote decks. Sometimes there are opposing Sabbat titled vampires when you are a Camarilla vote deck. Sometimes there are opposing Camarilla titled vampires when you are a Sabbat vote deck. The chances of this are essentially random. As that is how the game works. Sometimes you sit down with a vote deck, and there are no other decks with significant vote power on the table. Sometimes you sit down with a vote deck and there are 4 other votes with titles at the table. These things are random. And whether or not the titles are Camarilla or Sabbat is also random. Yes, again, Camarilla vote decks are better than Sabbat vote decks. But non vote decks show up with titles all the time too.

It's contradictory to say at the same time that princes and camarilla vote are at a large advantage and that both card have the same effect.

No, it isn't. As Camarilla vote decks are better than Sabbat vote decks. But Sabbat (and Laibon and Independent) titled vampires are at the table all the time. Even if they aren't being used to fuel a vote deck. Being able to shut off 3-5 random table votes when you are a Camarilla guy playing Private Audience is just as useful as being able to shut off 3-5 random table votes when you are a Sabbat guy playing the other one. Except the Sabbat one also costs a blood.