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exclamation-circle Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

24 Jan 2016 13:51 - 24 Jan 2016 13:57 #75207 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

Sorry, but I will go to tournaments with the same exactly same deck, and I will lose maybe, but I wil be here.


So, even if the game is changed by new tech so that your deck massively underperforms, can't cope with new strategies, is undermined by three opponents packing new cards that deliberately thwart your deck, and is based on assumptions that no longer hold, you'll spend 6 hours sitting around in a tournament knowing you'll lose?

It wouldn't take much new tech to make MMPA or recursion tech vastly less attractive. Some sort of in-play effect (event, master, referendum, whatever) that makes recursion expensive in some fashion - tap lots of stuff, use up blood or life, discard stuff, cancel effects, or whatever - and, assuming you make it reasonably playable, Anthelios and LiquidAshur could be horribly mangled. A little more tech along the lines of Trochomancy (that is, me messing with your ash heap) could upset a LiquidAshur based - I could see something like that working for the Nos, !Nos and Samedi - well, the Samedi can technically already play Trochomancy anyway, I guess. Some better anti-Event tech than Not To Be, perhaps a much more widely available variant of Black Hand Ritual or something like that. Some freaky Malkavian card that swaps the order of master and minion phases, making everything a whole lot weirder.
Last edit: 24 Jan 2016 13:57 by jamesatzephyr.

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24 Jan 2016 13:56 #75208 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

Except that you're talking about new strategies coming from new cards which is good to keep the game alive (or undead :-p )

Banned cards kill strategies...


But new strategies can also extinguish old strategies, because the new strategy works better, is more robust, is easier to play, is more fun, being explicitly designed to counter it, or whatever else.

Apparently, the right thing to do is to print cards that make strategies unfeasible, such as making MMPA massively more expensive to use. If you do that, sure, someone can turn up and sit in a tournament as a useless bag of pool and a free VP for their predators, but that would be a silly thing for a player to do. When your deck just simply isn't tenable anymore, why would you sit in a tournament for four or six hours playing it, when you could just punch yourself in the nuts in the comfort of your own home?

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24 Jan 2016 14:00 #75209 by cordovader
Replied by cordovader on topic Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

If you do that, sure, someone can turn up and sit in a tournament as a useless bag of pool and a free VP for their predators, but that would be a silly thing for a player to do.


This is what most players do anyway. What problem is there to be a bag of pool with Anthelios? :)

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24 Jan 2016 19:48 - 25 Jan 2016 07:29 #75216 by Ashur
Replied by Ashur on topic Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

Maybe we don't agree because we don't agree with the reasons that were given. Maybe it's you that needs to understand other people's point of view, because you have given NO SINGLE TRUE REASON to justify your point of view. The only arguments you use to "defend" your opinion are quoting Pascal and saying "Anthelios is already banned so get over it".


I haven´t given much own arguements because I agree with what Pascal wrote. I´ve stated several times earlier that I don´t like MMPA-decks as they don´t interact alot with the table with minion actions, but that´s not the point here.

If it's a matter of "how the game should be" and the VEKN decides it so, OK, nothing to discuss in terms of the reasons given (anyway in that case I think they would be exceeding their role, but that's a personal opinion). As far as I recall I have never voted the attributions the VEKN should have and neither have you. I repeat (for the narrow-minded), as I said in my first post in this thread: I value the work the VEKN is doing and if it was not for the volunteers the game would already be dead. Anyway, I think their job should be open to critics.


In my experience having this type of discussion AFTER a ruling/banning has been made has never resulted in a change of the ruling/banning. That´s just the way VEKN works, I have no idea why, but there is not much debate about that bit.

All this debate around "Anthelios was banned because MMPA decks are overpowered" is false and doesn't help the community (and this last is a personal opinion). What does "overpowered" mean? Do cards have a power equivalency and just being above the average makes a card overpowered? If this is the case, most of the cards making part of the TWDA should probably disapear.


"Overpowered" usually means "too good for the game" when you talk about games.

The debate around "Anthelios was banned because it's abused by a certain type of decks, making it non-profatible for the rest of the players in a table" it's dangerous because it puts in the same scope a lot of cards: Dragonbound, Unmasking, Narrow Minds, Mbare Market Harare, Fame... I have deliberatively chosen cards that cannot be [in-built] stolen or [in-built] burnt for logical reasons. Do you agree in banning all cards that share this same principle?


If one wants to ban Anthelios because of the card text on Anthelios, it has nothing to do with these other cards, because they are not Anthelios. Your argumentation is similiar to "Anthelios starts with an A, so we have to ban all cards that starts with an A." I´m sure you understand this.

My question: if Anthelios was that bad (and some people agree that events are bad for the game ; not me) and the VEKN is releasing new sets, why not release a card to make available burning events (or making it unable to play more events or Gehenna)?


No, because we don´t want to hose other events, just Anthelios. Got it?
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Last edit: 25 Jan 2016 07:29 by Ashur.

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25 Jan 2016 23:39 #75230 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Cards Bans 2016 (Anthelios, the red star, Seeds of corruption,Temptation of Greater Power)

My question: if Anthelios was that bad (and some people agree that events are bad for the game ; not me) and the VEKN is releasing new sets, why not release a card to make available burning events (or making it unable to play more events or Gehenna)?

Because in a competition, the one with and active winning strategy will most likely win over a counter-strategy.

If you try to win an Anthelios deck with a deck designed to hose Events/Anthelios you are not very likely to get that many VPs. While the Anthelios deck will just keep on truckin and accumulating those VPs and GWs.
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