question-circle Emerald Legionnaire — First Black Chantry Nerf?

08 Apr 2019 16:50 #94442 by Mewcat

Problematic card in VtES is not the same as a problematic card in other two player CCGs - we got contest, table dynamics and silver bullets to fix spikes in power, so we will never see real dominance in statistics from any "narrow" (not available to everybody, like pentex) card. Key problem is mentioned earlier fun factor - cards should be banned/changed/or something on the basis of making the play less fun.

I would argue that the data points can be less obvious but would still exist. The way to find them is most assuredly not provide a list of cards found in winning decks nearly all the time and then ignore that because they are 'fine'.

Obviously fun is subjective, so there must be some authority (Lead Game Designer) who will decide, what is fun in this game and what is not. Still haven't heard anything in this regard from current "powers".

Yes. All I am really doing is making it clear that this is not fun and is just a poorly designed card, imo.

I can still speculate, that there are two problems in EL - that others can't interact with their put into play ability (it should be 1 stealth action) and Unmasking, which together with ally swarm makes small stealth pointless, by which half of actions in the game became pointless, because if you should invest into delivery mechanism for each action than you can't allow to have small effects, but it's just my opinion.

Well both of those cards are good examples of a disconnect between cost and effect as well as a terrible example of interaction (just putting cards into play).

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08 Apr 2019 17:35 #94447 by skimflux

I would argue that vtes is neither competitive or balanced. The majority of people that go to a vtes event are not trying to break the game but rather to have dome fun with friends and you can see it in their deck choices. If we were trying to win above all other considerations it would just be dominate obfuscate stealth bleed forever.

VtES is competitive by definition: players compete to atain an objective, and at the end of each game there is a single winner (or a draw). This is in contrast (for example) to a cooperative game, where players cooperate to atain an objective and at the end they win or lose collectivelly.

Discussing balance is far more complex. It is obvious that some decks in VtES are far more effective at winning than others, so 'balance' cannot not be discussed in absolute - it has to be discussed under a certain set of assumptions, such as: comparing decks which are capable of winning a game against an 'average' tournament deck.

I looked through a couple years before they banned kindred restructure and you see about 10 instances of the cards each year, contrasted with 11 EL instances in 6 months. Clearly a card need not be an outlier to be banned.

Quite right - in fact most banned card were not outliers in the TWDA when the banning occurred - Seeds of Corruption, Temptation of Greater Power, all the Ante cards, Madness of the Bard, Succubus Club, etc. However, all of these cards were banned for reasons other (or in addition to) being 'too powerful' (with possible exception for ToGP).

If one believes a card should be banned, they should rely on arguments other than just 'it's overpowered', because the only evidence (by proxy) we have of a cards effectiveness is the TWDA, and that is not conclusive for many cards where this argument is being made.
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08 Apr 2019 18:00 - 08 Apr 2019 18:01 #94449 by Mewcat
I should say it's not a good competitive game. There is a paper rock scissors championship. I leave that as my entire argument.

I have argued numerous times how it ruins the flow of a game, obliterates it's prey, hogs the time clock, has crappy art, no flavor ( like what are they some wraith. how do they make more, just wait for people to die, are they ever even a part of vampire?), kittens were harmed during it's making, etc
Last edit: 08 Apr 2019 18:01 by Mewcat.

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08 Apr 2019 20:21 - 08 Apr 2019 20:23 #94452 by Kushiel

has crappy art,

I disagree, but it is...odd art, as the Emerald Legion are wraiths who died due to accidents, not violence.

like what are they some wraith


how do they make more, just wait for people to die

"Accidental" deaths, presumably.

, are they ever even a part of vampire?

As much as Amam the Devourer, Dauntain Black Magician, Walks-With-Might, Maman Boumba, or Nephandus are.
Last edit: 08 Apr 2019 20:23 by Kushiel.

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09 Apr 2019 06:42 #94457 by Lönkka

Part of the illusion of EL being overpowered comes from Unmasking. Unmasking is certainly not overpowered, however, there is no efficient way to get rid of it. The popularity of unmasking increased with EL and the boost of Nephandi (the vampire whose name shall not be spoken). Maybe it is time for a new unique card that says "-1 intercept to allies" or even "-1 bleed to predator's allies".

Or maybe people start packing Uncoiling.
Works on other annoying events too... ;)

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