Attempt to Fix (not ban) Events

Im not sure pentex deserves to be treated as an arms race type thing, as there are clear examples of such stuff:

Your prey is dropping nocturns, so you and your war ghouls/garou need to find and play unmasking asap, otherwise, once you oust your prey, no more unmasking if they control it.

Combat decks will sometimes play secure haven, as its the easiest (see:doesnt use up an action and cant get blocked) way to deal with a secure haven on a vamp that NEEDS TO GO.

as for uncoiling, i feel i own enough uncoiling amd narrow minds to not need any more of them, and run both cardsrarely. Why? Who freaking cares. Most events dont bother most of my decks. If i run shooty agg and olay against war ghouls and imbued, oops, meta gamed. If i run my infinate earth meld and am downwind of stealthbleed or powerbleed, oops, the one thing i fant deal with well, other than grapples, im metagamed.

Shit happens.

Now, girls decks, ige built dexks just ti foil, but without mmpa crap, i just have a so-so deck.

Ive thought about running giants blood in my malk94 to stop other decks from using it. Like, my predator gets convert turn one, my turn one is GB convert, just because.

Does anyone remember that 5 month stretch when imbued were popular again in like 2009 ish, when everyone ran 4th cycle, or was looking to trade for one? That card sucks. Unless reliably each or at least every other table you see table poison imbued.

We have anti event events, im cool with them, but people seem to think events are worse than mmpa, which i think makes them seem like they havent realized how much bigger a problem the latter is, but oh well i suppose.

@ReverendRevolver :

I am no Native English and I can't understand what is your point here ?

Timo wrote:

@ReverendRevolver :

I am no Native English and I can't understand what is your point here ?

People are complaining about the wrong thing. Kutas post was a simple, but arguably too narrow approach, as uncoiling and BH ritual are already silver bullet answers to events.

Events WERE a problem when Imbued were popular again in roughly 2009. But thats the last time all events were a problem, and even then, it was imbued+events, and everyones answer was 4 th cycle.

Now, Unmasking is strong, but so far only it, Anthelios, and then "imbued table poison, being imbued+events in large numbers" have been mentioned as problematic.

Mmpa/girls builds abuse anthelios, but its only part of the real problem with those decks. Now, how those decks work and should be tamed via erratta is in at least one or more threads other than this one. But, those decks are a much bigger issue than events as a whole.

Now, imbued+events is viable for discussion, albeit not as pressing of a concern due to:
Decrease is popularity,
The global meta adapting to(learning to deal with) table poison imbued, as well as differentiating between normal evil to the tabke imbued and other builds,
And lastly, there are other complaints about imbued, like not being able to rip thier heads off, or thier arms, with related cards.

Other than joking about banning the undesputed KING of not useful events, Beccomming of Ennoia, most of my comments on this thread say:
Events can be dealt with if they will be your undoing, so run ways to deal with them.(if the contesting thing was confusing, i was agreeing that Jeff Kutas way was another viable option for this if it were a rule, and ive said a "VESSEL EVENT" isnt an optimal way to address the issue, but is a way)
Events is broad, just 3 ish are strong alone, and one of those is banned.
Unmasking and Anthelios are the targets. Anthelios is just part of a bigger issue, the real problem, MMPA decks and how broken they are, and making anthelios say "masters cant be played" wouldnt even stop that issue.

Unmasking enables alot, disables some (not getting into the broad argument over that, allies are strictly worse to build a deck around without unmasking) but overall, isnt a HUGE problem, like other things. No reason to ban it, really, or change it.

Anthelios, is:
A cool gimmick in older mmpa and imbuex decks, along with thin decks running limited master slots.
A way to get "requires other gehenna" cards, like fueled by heartsblood in gimmick decks, to be playable.
And one of about 8 broken parts of MMPA decks, namely "Girls will find(more gw than they should)" decks.
The last of those is the only REAL problem i have with events being too strong, most other problems are them being useless, or close to it, like Conquest of Humanity.

Since this problem i admit is a big deal isnt with all events, or even JUST with anthelios, i was hoping someone would convince me that i was wrong, or find a problem with events that i missed somehow.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Isn't this just a 'silver bullet' to solve a problem, when we already effectively have a Silver Bullet for Events (as people have mentioned before... The Uncoiling.)

This is terrible design philosophy.

This is, to a certain extent, the same 'arms race' philosophy that says that every deck should have Pentex Subversion purely because someone ELSE might play Pentex Subversion on you. It's just not sensible. If we want a diversity of deck style and types that can win tournaments, then we need to encourage a diversity of cards to be used...

Have you ever sat at a table where you played The Uncoiling and it *randomly* burned the wrong event, so your prey (who had the bad event(s) you wanted gone) gladly paid 1 or 2 pool to keep their "screw the entire table" events in play? I have. It happens.

The Uncoiling, Black Hand Ritual, and Not To Be are *bad* anti-event cards. BHR requires an action and NTB needs to be in hand before the event is played. The Uncoiling is closest to being reasonable since it always burns something that is already in play. But it is random and some events are overly powerful.

I'm almost to the point where I could support the "Ban all events" movement, but I'm not quite there yet. I like some of the minor enablers like The Bitter and Sweet Story, NRA PAC, and Urban Jungle, as well as hosers Narrow Minds and Scourge of the Enochians.

But I'm glad you call my solution a silver bullet because that's exactly what it is supposed to be: precisely countering a problem card with itself. In fact, it's better than The Uncoiling because you can 100% anticipate that it will work when the "anti"-event card is in your hand. Maybe countering highly-powered cards with highly-powered and highly-targeted effects is just what the game could use.

It's not card design at all. It's a rule change that could provide another non-card, non-ban solution to a pervasive and wide-spread problem. It lowers the opportunity cost because it provides *yet another* solution to the event problem, one that happens to not require developing a new card to implement.

I can easily imagine decks playing with both the above-mentioned "good" events and "anti"-events because they don't have to use The Uncoiling as protection against "bad" events. Seems like a good thing to me, one that would encourage deck diversity, not inhibit it.

I am finding the "never seen it really bother me" defense as de ja vu from all those discussions we had of the currently small banned list. We had similar anecdotal rallies for PTO, seat switchers (a.k.a. VP snipers), etc. VtES is renowned as a reactionary slow paced community to pick up on and successfully petition against problem cards in their environment. By not going into block rotations we end up with a massive card pool to deal with unexpected combos. None of those "meh, doesn't bother me, let's stay still" defenses really held water then, and I don't see them holding water now.

Event card type is a glaringly obvious design problem amid a game with plenty of legacy issues. It's a card type designed to be outside the general power curve, both in swing and duration. Further, it is designed to be outside the traditional play structure of master and minion cards, and currently is such a small card pool number, that brakes and counters are woefully inadequate to bring their power potential to heel. As a legacy design space left rather anemic, without active contestation it will remain a problematic design space.

Events are global enchantments in a game without much already played ways to kill them.

Im not now, probably never will be, convinced non-interactive cards are a great thing for the game.
But, name a non-gehenna event that you feel breaks the game enough to justify banning.

4 th cycle was all the rage for a few months, people seriously played it.
Ive just never felt a need to.

Yes, we hate change as a playerbase. Yes, bad a few years ago, didnt hold water.

Now, no real cards get made, so why bad ones that arent ruining the game globally?

Someones answer last time banning was thrown all around was wed all be computer hacking with Apolonious if we banned everything strong, then the stuff taking its place, etc. Unrealistic, but still shows the point .

Master phase action rules need changed, lets do that and while testing it, see if Jeffs amswer is ok or not. Whats it gonna hurt?