Villein hate, idea 9001

elotar wrote:

Some examples:
1. Innate abilities of the vampires.
“All vampires with the discipline in their profile once per turn by spending 1 blood can use its ability.”
pot: H and or wep strike with +1 str
dom: bleed action with +1
for: treat agg as nomal
pre: +1 vote
obt: burn opposing ally
cel: manuver
ets
2. Good actions, costing 3+ blood, like shambling hordes, sensory deprivation of heroic might for each discipline.

Neither of these ideas will do anything at all to address the issues that Villein present. As, generally speaking, if folks plan on Villeining their minions, they also plan on filling them back up, one way or the other (GB/Lilith's Blessing/Voter Cap/Taste/whatever). So if the incentive to not Villein was "Hey! I can do this cool thing for 3 blood!", people will either plan on not doing that thing, filling up and doing that thing anyway, or Villeining and then having the *next* vampire they get out do that thing.

For example, Necromancy vampires can play Shambling Hordes, which is a very good card for 3 blood. The end result of this is that vampires with Necromancy either play Shambling Hordes (and no Villein) or play Villein (and no Shambling Hordes). And the decision making process isn't usually based on "Oh, if only I could play Villein *and* Shambling Hordes! Whatever shall I do?" It is based on "here is what I want my deck to do, and here is the best way to do it." Not all decks use Villein already.

bakija wrote:

The end result of this is that vampires with Necromancy either play Shambling Hordes (and no Villein) or play Villein (and no Shambling Hordes). And the decision making process isn't usually based on "Oh, if only I could play Villein *and* Shambling Hordes! Whatever shall I do?" It is based on "here is what I want my deck to do, and here is the best way to do it." Not all decks use Villein already.

Yea, and such choice is the goal of my idea. By now most good cards costs 0-1 blood, so you're losing nothing by villeining your vamps. If there will be real use for additional blood, then villein will be just one of trifles.

elotar wrote:

Yea, and such choice is the goal of my idea. By now most good cards costs 0-1 blood, so you're losing nothing by villeining your vamps. If there will be real use for additional blood, then villein will be just one of trifles.

I appreciate your attempt to be constructive.

What I don't get is that people don't see the possibilities in the game which bloodemptied minions offer. If they are low on blood you can easily torporize them. Instead of using this fact you search for rewards for having blood on the minion. I would appreciate it if you'd teach the villeining players the disadvantages of being without blood (with the instruments the game is offering you) instead of searching for goodies for having blood. You seem to be sensory depraved by your hate against this specific card so you cannot come up with ideas to counter it. Leaving the Girlsdecks aside you can always banish, combat, empty the minions in multiple ways (bloodstealing allies, Cryptic Mission, Free State Rant, others mentioned by clever people above) and destroy someone's game easily. If, and maybe that's the whole problem, if you agree to experiment with deckideas other than the known and proven ones. Yes, Villein is one of the best cards in the game. But like all the other cards it fortunately has a downside. Use it to your advantage. THAT is what makes a good deckbuilder (at least in my eyes).

Joscha wrote:

elotar wrote:

Yea, and such choice is the goal of my idea. By now most good cards costs 0-1 blood, so you're losing nothing by villeining your vamps. If there will be real use for additional blood, then villein will be just one of trifles.

I appreciate your attempt to be constructive.

What I don't get is that people don't see the possibilities in the game which bloodemptied minions offer. If they are low on blood you can easily torporize them. Instead of using this fact you search for rewards for having blood on the minion. I would appreciate it if you'd teach the villeining players the disadvantages of being without blood (with the instruments the game is offering you) instead of searching for goodies for having blood. You seem to be sensory depraved by your hate against this specific card so you cannot come up with ideas to counter it. Leaving the Girlsdecks aside you can always banish, combat, empty the minions in multiple ways (bloodstealing allies, Cryptic Mission, Free State Rant, others mentioned by clever people above) and destroy someone's game easily. If, and maybe that's the whole problem, if you agree to experiment with deckideas other than the known and proven ones. Yes, Villein is one of the best cards in the game. But like all the other cards it fortunately has a downside. Use it to your advantage. THAT is what makes a good deckbuilder (at least in my eyes).

I've alredy passed this point - 5 sudden reversals and problem is solved. But the game will be really boring if everybody will start to play in such a way.

The problem with villein by now is not, that this cards can't be beaten, it's just that it is too good. I think it's the master eguivalent of "hand strike: strength+6 damage" without any requirenments. Sure you can play skin of steel, s:ce, long range combat, but the card still will be quite disbalanced.

The problem, that additional blood means nothing (or you can call it "big vampires are bad") was in this game from the beginning long before the villein. The goal of new cards is to solve game problems, not "add bounce to animalizm" or other strange things for lulz, which are suggested here.

As much as it frustrates me when my prey / predator plays a couple of Villeins in a single master phase and comes from the brink of death to a game-winning position, the trifle-ness opens up significant possibilities in deck-designing that I never fussed with before. I play far more high-cap decks than ever before - Minion Taps are great, sure, but Master slots were tight - so Villein has opened some doors for me and on balance I don't really mind it - despite obvious Giant's Blood / Lilith's Blessing abuses.

Just as some actions must be taken before others (mandatory v. non-mandatory), what if there was a 'precedence rule' created for master cards? You could say, for example, that Villein, Giant's Blood and (picking another much-maligned card at semi-random) Pentex Subversion could only be played with the very first MPA of each turn? That'd mean multi-master decks could still exist, but they'd have to be significantly cannier - Villein and Giant's Blood within the same phase doesn't work anymore now, although each card works well enough by itself for those who have a splash of them in their decks. Note that Villein wouldn't even need to be so flagged if Giant's Blood was the only problem, but Lilith's Blessing probably pushes it onto this list.

Beyond errata, the trade-off is that it creates some problems for OOT-heavy decks. Any other downsides / weaknesses?

cheers

Disco Stu
Prince of Melbourne, Australia