Villein hate, idea 9001

Many a Villein printed both in Keepers as well as in each of the Heirs starters. Should be more than enough, so proxying seems redundant. Besides, what if someone wants to play good ol' Minion Taps?

I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".

Oh, I am talking about myself. I want to be able to play Minion Tap, and I am not a new player.

I have a Ventrue deck with two Minion Taps that I played this weekend. When I wanted to play a Minion Tap for three, it would have cost me two pool, which made me decide to discard it.

Okay, I get it: Play Villein. But why should I have to? Why is Minion Tap so broken that I must now purchase Villeins? Because LSJ and CCP wanted my money? That's the best answer I can come up with, and it's not a very nice one.

Lönkka wrote:

Many a Villein printed both in Keepers as well as in each of the Heirs starters. Should be more than enough, so proxying seems redundant. Besides, what if someone wants to play good ol' Minion Taps?

I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".

No Keepers of Tradition boosters available anywhere, and useful commons from that set go for silly prices, so if that's your argument for its widespread availability, try again. There are plenty of Vessels in the Keepers starters, but no Villeins.

As for the Heirs to the Blood starters, those are long gone and highly sought after, far scarcer than Keepers boosters, so they hardly provide a useful supply.

As far as my area group, the "new player" is hardly hypothetical. They might be actually new, they might be someone who stopped playing after Sabbat, doesn't much matter. If you don't have at least some encounters with "new players" it sounds to me like you could be making more of an effort to recruit them.

Lönkka wrote:

Many a Villein printed both in Keepers as well as in each of the Heirs starters. Should be more than enough, so proxying seems redundant. Besides, what if someone wants to play good ol' Minion Taps?

I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".

My seven copies of Villein are not nearly enough to cover the decks I want to put them in. I must have 8-10 Eyes of Argus and those aren't enough. So far I have not acquired enough copies of Deep Song for even one animalism deck that needs more than a few. Had I known that HttB starters would disappear so quickly, sure I would have bought more than 1/2 a box. Now that I don't have the choice, I have to proxy, constantly move cards around(and sometimes forget which goes where), or just not play the card, common or not. I am not sympathetic to Kevin's argument that for a card that you want in multiples in many decks, $6(and that is VERY low from what I've seen) is a reasonable price per card. For tournaments I can suck it up and move cards/borrow cards/not use cards, but it is annoying that there is such an unmet need.

Lönkka wrote:

I'm not really buying the talk about the hypothetical new player. Most people say "new player" when they mean "old player who didn't want to purchase sets when they were available".

Well, I just got two completely new people interested in the game today. That makes, what, 5 this summer? Add to that this totally new gaming group who got into the game in Northern Ireland last spring, and the concept of a New Player isn't as utopistic as it might seem to some.

Granted, I feel I'm really working with the new player issue, but I think it's really that important. Also, I love playing with new people. And I mean new in various meanings of the word.

Also, to Kevin: I'd rather buy the new guys some mid-cap bleeders, combat guys and whatnot or invest in some Grooming the Proteges - or anything else than ask them to invest $40 in 6 cards! Villein was an outrageous addition to the game, but even more so now that the game got discontinued. I'm not saying it's that overpowered that it cannot be outplayed, I'm not that childish, but I am saying it had an immensely negative impact on how easy it is to get new players actually hooked, not just trying out for a couple of casuals a year. Money is an issue with Villein. Seriously.

Just my two cents!

brandonsantacruz wrote:

My seven copies of Villein are not nearly enough to cover the decks I want to put them in. I must have 8-10 Eyes of Argus and those aren't enough.

Move them around. I do. No sympathy over here for people that want to build and keep together umpteen decks. Oh, and make decklists and keep them with the deck box, so you know what goes where. Use a pencil, if you need to.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

I am not sympathetic to Kevin's argument that for a card that you want in multiples in many decks, $6 (and that is VERY low from what I've seen) is a reasonable price per card. For tournaments I can suck it up and move cards/borrow cards/not use cards, but it is annoying that there is such an unmet need.

I agree the unmet need is large, and that is unfortunate. The last few Villein eBay auctions went for $6 and $8 per Villein, fyi.