file Villein hate, idea 9001

25 Jul 2011 09:56 #6752 by Lech
Replied by Lech on topic Re: Villein hate, idea 9001
Thing that would solve game mechanic would be changing game mechanic.

First thing is getting rid of 'default' strength and bleed, and making them displayed on the card. Second thing is increasing poll, capacity of vampires and most other values (maybe except stealth and intercept) twice to get better spectrum of choices (for example weenie would have bleed 1 and some current 9 cap would bleed for 3).

It would also help with pricing cards correctly, as currently some cards would be too good as free cards and wallpapers as cards that cost 1 blood.

Another thing that would help would be making hunt less effective for weenies. Right now it dont matter if weenie or 11cap hunts as they both gain 1 blood when successful.

Huge thing that would help the game and make combat deeper would be introducing initiative steps instead of first strike mechanic. It would make strike: combat ends more balanced against other strikes. Strikes would be chosen in initiative steps, and s:ce would usually have high initiative value, thus will be played as pre-measure unlike current reactive s:ce of non-acting vampires, and strike:dodge would act reactive (able to dodge strikes with higher initiative).

Back to the topic, villein is not the problem, bloodgain is (giants blood, voter cap).

:laso: :CEL: :DOM: :OBT: :POT: :cap8:
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

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25 Jul 2011 10:37 #6756 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Villein hate, idea 9001

Thing that would solve game mechanic would be changing game mechanic.

First thing is getting rid of 'default' strength and bleed, and making them displayed on the card. Second thing is increasing poll, capacity of vampires and most other values (maybe except stealth and intercept) twice to get better spectrum of choices (for example weenie would have bleed 1 and some current 9 cap would bleed for 3).

It would also help with pricing cards correctly, as currently some cards would be too good as free cards and wallpapers as cards that cost 1 blood.

Another thing that would help would be making hunt less effective for weenies. Right now it dont matter if weenie or 11cap hunts as they both gain 1 blood when successful.

Huge thing that would help the game and make combat deeper would be introducing initiative steps instead of first strike mechanic. It would make strike: combat ends more balanced against other strikes. Strikes would be chosen in initiative steps, and s:ce would usually have high initiative value, thus will be played as pre-measure unlike current reactive s:ce of non-acting vampires, and strike:dodge would act reactive (able to dodge strikes with higher initiative).

May I suggest to add some miniatures too, and a board? We could also replace the cards by dices. ;)

Back to the topic, villein is not the problem, bloodgain is (giants blood, voter cap).

I don't think that blood gain is a problem per se (otherwise, Hunting Ground, Taste of Vitae etc. should be banned). Could you clarify?

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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25 Jul 2011 12:01 - 25 Jul 2011 12:03 #6760 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Villein hate, idea 9001
VTES is a game where resources are globally showing a shortfall.
    it easier to lose blood than gaining it (strike for 3 against hunt for 1)
    it easier to lose pool than gaining it (bleeding for 1 against keeping the edge to gain 1, influencing vampires, card costs...)


Due to this, games tend to end (otherwise players would be gaining more pool than loosing it and would never be ousted).

Some cards give some blood/pool at some blood/pool cost
    Hunting ground, 1 blood per turn against 2 pool and a MPA (once)
    Govern the Unaligned superior (+2 pool)
    5th Tradition (+4 blood)
    Renew Vigor (+X blood)


Some cards give pool at no cost
    Art Scam (+2 pool)
    Voter Captivation (+2 pool)
    Parity Shift (+X pool)
    Golconda (+X pool)
    Minion Tap / Villein (+X pool)
    Political Stranglehold (+X pool, once)

Some cards give blood at no cost
    Coven (+2 blood)
    Restauration (+3 blood)
    Giant's Blood (+X blood, once)
    Voter Captivation (+X blood)
    Lilith's Blessing (3 blood, once)

Apparently, people are complaining about the fact that Villein allows to gain pool at too little cost.
The first Villein is no gain pool since you'll end with as much pool you had if you hadn't influence out the vampire.
But, it means you have an extra minion at no cost.

Until now, there's nothing new because Minion Tap already allowed this.

It would mean that the second MPA is responsible of the unbalancedness of the card.

1) But most blood gaining cards are NOT masters. So the trouble seems to be that the trifleness of Villein allows to regain the pool AND do something else of your master phase, meaning that the MPA are very important (wow!). The fact that another Villein may be played later, after having regaining some blood is moot since it could already be done with Minion Tap.

For example, I can play a Villein and a Pentex in the same turn. With Minion Tap, I would have been obliged to wait 1 turn.

So, is Villein too good because it allows you to gain 1 turn (compared to Minion Tap)? To be discussed.

2) Some people complain that the trifleness allows to "gain pool". In fact, they're always refering to the play of Villein + Giant's Blood, or Villein + Lilith's Blessing. In the first case, it result in a net gain of X pool (once in a game), in the second case of 3 pool (once per vampire).
To be compared to the gain of 2 pool for Art Scam, 5 pool for Parity Shift, 2 pool for Govern the Unaligned etc. So it seems quite balanced (even if the Villein + Giant's Blood combo is a "lucky" one because you have to play it before someone else does. Considering the odds are the same for everyone, it means you'll gain an average 2 pool with it for a 10-cap vampire).

Blood doll + Hunting ground is also a combo that makes you gain 1 pool each turn, so I think it's no big deal to gain 3 pool from time to time.


So, given what has been said, some ideas would be:
- make Villein non-trifle (which makes it worse than Minion Tap, so Villein can be banned and we play with Minion Tap again)
- make Villein cost some pool or limit the amount of blood moved so it's more in line with Minion Tap (but this require to prove than Minion Tap is balanced)
- ban Villein and Minion Tap, making big vampires once again more difficult to play

IMHO, Villein is good as it is. Since it's more "playable" than Minion Tap, I would maybe limit the blood moved to 5 (with no lower limit) and remove the penalty on Minion Tap (allowing to play both depending on the type of deck). Or make it trifle only if you take move 5 blood or less (so it merges with Minion Tap).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 25 Jul 2011 12:03 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Brum, Lönkka

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25 Jul 2011 12:22 - 25 Jul 2011 12:23 #6761 by Karo
Replied by Karo on topic Re: Villein hate, idea 9001

...So, given what has been said, some ideas would be:
- make Villein non-trifle (which makes it worse than Minion Tap, so Villein can be banned and we play with Minion Tap again)
- make Villein cost some pool or limit the amount of blood moved so it's more in line with Minion Tap (but this require to prove than Minion Tap is balanced)
- ban Villein and Minion Tap, making big vampires once again more difficult to play

IMHO, Villein is good as it is. Since it's more "playable" than Minion Tap, I would maybe limit the blood moved to 5 (with no lower limit) and remove the penalty on Minion Tap (allowing to play both depending on the type of deck). Or make it trifle only if you take move 5 blood or less (so it merges with Minion Tap). ...

All good ideas and nice train of thought!
/signed

klubtitanatlas.hr/

former NC for Croatia
Last edit: 25 Jul 2011 12:23 by Karo.

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25 Jul 2011 12:34 #6762 by Karo
Replied by Karo on topic Re: Villein hate, idea 9001

Thing that would solve game mechanic would be changing game mechanic.

First thing is getting rid of 'default' strength and bleed, and making them displayed on the card. Second thing is increasing poll, capacity of vampires and most other values (maybe except stealth and intercept) twice to get better spectrum of choices (for example weenie would have bleed 1 and some current 9 cap would bleed for 3).

It would also help with pricing cards correctly, as currently some cards would be too good as free cards and wallpapers as cards that cost 1 blood.

Another thing that would help would be making hunt less effective for weenies. Right now it dont matter if weenie or 11cap hunts as they both gain 1 blood when successful.

Huge thing that would help the game and make combat deeper would be introducing initiative steps instead of first strike mechanic. It would make strike: combat ends more balanced against other strikes. Strikes would be chosen in initiative steps, and s:ce would usually have high initiative value, thus will be played as pre-measure unlike current reactive s:ce of non-acting vampires, and strike:dodge would act reactive (able to dodge strikes with higher initiative).

Back to the topic, villein is not the problem, bloodgain is (giants blood, voter cap).


Errr? Try some board games :) There is absolutely nothing wrong with one of the best mechanics in the whole TCG/CCG world.
/not signed at all

klubtitanatlas.hr/

former NC for Croatia

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25 Jul 2011 15:20 #6763 by prunesquallor
I don't find a problem with the blood gain aspect of Villein.

The part that bothers me is that it hoses Minion Tap. Since Villein is hard to find, it means that newer players will always be at a disadvantage until they shell out the money to upgrade their minion taps to Villeins. Unlike the Vessel vs Blood Doll, it's pretty much a no brainer for which card to include when you compare Minion Tap and Villein, and usually the only reason to play with Minion Tap is that you don't have any/enough Villein.

Many people that I know have started to allow Minion Tap as a proxy for Villein, which I think is fine. If that were adopted across the board, we'd all be playing with Villein, and things would carry on much as they do today but without the big penalty on new players.

The other alternative for this problem is to remove the Villein text that hoses Minion Tap.

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