Villein hate, idea 9001

elotar wrote:

All previous ideas are "attacks" on the card itself.

Villein was created to right an imbalance between small vampires with low costs and large vampires with higher costs.

The 'solution' doesn't require reprinting or banning or errata.

The simplest solution is a change to one sentence in the rulebook.

www.vekn.net/index.php/rulebook/7-influence-phase

rulebook wrote:

At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.

proposal wrote:

At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to 6 (or more), or equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.

Where 6 could also work as 5. This way you can bring out a large vampire more quickly, save the space in the deck where you would have put the Villein/Minion Tap, and still have the original in play goal of a 6+ capacity vampire without a 20%+ investment of your pool. This would be particularly helpful for those vampires that require a 33% or more investment of your pool, the 10 and 11 capacity vampires. The vampires also come out up to half empty, so their ability to play all of their possible cards can be impaired.

This neutralizes Villein/Minion Tap/Lilith's Blessing's necessity in decks while allowing all players to still use them if they can benefit from them in the specific deck that they wish to play.

KevinM wrote:

Brum wrote:

I agree with you Aaron, but only because Villein is so hard to get to new players.

Villein is $6-8 and it's constantly on eBay. Sell them six of your extra Villein. they can either give you $40 or buy you a dinner or a few beers. If someone isn't willing to spend $40 to make their deck(s) 95% better than that is its own problem.

If those were the prices, yes, I agree.
But a search in eBay shows a Bye it Now for 15 and a normal bid that has just started.

I let me be clear. When I write new players, I'm writing about players that started playing in the last 12 months.
You know, the type of people who would like to get Magic of the Smith, Villein, Dreams, stuff that goes for 9+ us Doll a piece on eBay.

prunesquallor wrote:

No Keepers of Tradition boosters available anywhere, and useful commons from that set go for silly prices

Not any more. But it used to be available for a good long while. But since quite a few old hands didn't buy that many boosters wanting to buy the needed cards separately there is now a substantially higher demand for even some of the commons than normally.

Lession learned: Buy products when they are available so you don't need to cry over spilt milk.

prunesquallor wrote:

If you don't have at least some encounters with "new players" it sounds to me like you could be making more of an effort to recruit them.

Yeah, thes scene in Finland is pretty much dead...
This week there's a tournament that has consistently been the 2nd largest in the world for years on end with around 90 players or so and only around half a dozen of those are foreigners.

"think of the new players" = "think of the children"
Not very convincing argument IMHO.


If you didn't have good and solid access to Keepers boosters and Heirs Starters your local distributors/retailers didn't make that much effort to keep the product available.

Adonai wrote:

elotar wrote:

All previous ideas are "attacks" on the card itself.

Villein was created to right an imbalance between small vampires with low costs and large vampires with higher costs.

The 'solution' doesn't require reprinting or banning or errata.

The simplest solution is a change to one sentence in the rulebook.

www.vekn.net/index.php/rulebook/7-influence-phase

rulebook wrote:

At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.

proposal wrote:

At the end of your influence phase, any vampire in your uncontrolled region with a number of blood counters on him equal to 6 (or more), or equal to (or more than) his capacity becomes controlled.

Where 6 could also work as 5. This way you can bring out a large vampire more quickly, save the space in the deck where you would have put the Villein/Minion Tap, and still have the original in play goal of a 6+ capacity vampire without a 20%+ investment of your pool. This would be particularly helpful for those vampires that require a 33% or more investment of your pool, the 10 and 11 capacity vampires. The vampires also come out up to half empty, so their ability to play all of their possible cards can be impaired.

This neutralizes Villein/Minion Tap/Lilith's Blessing's necessity in decks while allowing all players to still use them if they can benefit from them in the specific deck that they wish to play.

This idea will kill midcap vampires.

Discussion is turning ugly again with repeting the same arguments

Let's try adding something new:
I've been thinking lately, and come to the conclusion that minion tap and blood doll are also too powerful.

If we are using 1:2 pool/blood ratio, than transfering blood to pool equals gaining 1 blood, so blood doll becames nearly equal to hunting ground, but without pool cost.

Minion tap "gain" hightly depends on size of vampire. If we left 3 blood as fine amount for vampire, than gain=(capasity-3)/2. 1 pool for 5cap - 4pool for IC.

"normal" pool gain for 1 master is 1 pool, so starting from the 6th cap we a gaining too many.

The same idea is with ashurs - 3 pool for 3 mpa is fine, but 13 cards are not - if we think, that liquidation is balanced, than 7 cards cost 2 pool, so real pool gain from ashurs is 7.

Lönkka wrote:

prunesquallor wrote:

No Keepers of Tradition boosters available anywhere, and useful commons from that set go for silly prices

Not any more. But it used to be available for a good long while. But since quite a few old hands didn't buy that many boosters wanting to buy the needed cards separately there is now a substantially higher demand for even some of the commons than normally.

Today is all that matters, I don't see the relevance of how things used to be.

Lönkka wrote:

"think of the new players" = "think of the children"
Not very convincing argument IMHO.

So, because you have no new players where you are, there are therefore no new players anywhere. If everyone playing the game thinks that way then I guarantee the game will be effectively dead in a couple of years.

Lönkka wrote:

If you didn't have good and solid access to Keepers boosters and Heirs Starters your local distributors/retailers didn't make that much effort to keep the product available.

At least in the US, most retailers have provided no support for the game unless they have an active playgroup in their shop (which is uncommon). Been this way for years before HttB.

What used to be is, as I said, no longer relevant. Anyone these days who comes across a game store that has Keepers boosters or Heirs starters is likely to buy up what they can. For themselves, for their playgroup, or to sell on eBay. That sealed product effectively no longer exists.

It's hard to see how to carry the conversation forward - you believe that new players don't exist, and I do; you talk of theoretical past access to cards and I'm only concerned with what can be done today.