file Proposal for a new set: 'IV'

18 Sep 2015 06:21 - 18 Sep 2015 06:42 #73197 by jamesatzephyr

Camarilla are represented by Brujah, Malkavian, Toreador and Ventrue. Classic clans who are moderately well-recognised both as common vampiric archetypes and as brand-names in their own right thanks to PC games that remained popular for years after their original release. Clans have overlap with Auspex, Celerity and Presence.

The Sabbat give us Lasombra, Tzimisce and Nosferatu antitribu. More different from one another than the Cam vampires, but with Potence and Animalism crossing over between 2 of the 3.

Lastly, Independents are represented by Assamite and Gangrel.

If it's me, I ditch the Assamites and replace them with the Giovanni. That gives you another clan with DOM/POT, who therefore overlap with the Lasombra quite well, so I can probably drop a 3 and 4 cap Lasombra with relevant disciplines into my Giovanni deck to spice it up. For a genuinely terrifying, effective and fairly newbie friendly bruisey-bleed strategy, make sure Shambling Hordes is one of the Necromancy cards. It provides an interesting blood management challenge, but the deck is much less tricksy overall to deal with for someone inexperienced than the fiddliness of Quietus - better bleed offence and defence, overall.

I'd then also think about trying to blend in a few off-clan disciplines that would help out some of the clans who are a bit more "stranded" - so perhaps a 5 cap Ventrue has FOR/ani/others to make them a possible include in a Gangrel deck, or a similar AUS/vic/others Toreador. And potentially the other way round - the 6 cap !Nosferatu with OBF/ANI/dem/pot, or similar, to go with the DEM/OBF/ani/aus Malkavian.
Last edit: 18 Sep 2015 06:42 by jamesatzephyr.
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18 Sep 2015 06:38 - 18 Sep 2015 07:19 #73199 by Walt

... It demonstrates why I'm suggesting a narrower group of clans and sects.

well I like the idea to have 3 sects in the base set but maybe it could have only 10 or so clans instead of 13

with 6 camarilla, 5 indipendent and 2 sabbat clans available we can have a base set with 6-2-2, 5-3-2 or 4-4-2 clans respectly keeping the sects flavor

Using my example above 10 clans instead of 13 free 48 slots (36 vampires and 12 clan's card) plus many others if you remove some disciplines

now we just need to kills each other in order to choose which clans need to be removed B-)
edit: as jamesatzephyr says we can use an antritribu clan to reinforce the sabbat sect so 4 camarilla, 3 indipendent and 3 sabbat (or 3-3-3) is also a good solution

I'm not sure about clans' sinergy. If some clans (say brujah/toreador or lasombra/giovanni) share 2 disciplines while others have not this option maybe we have an unbalance, more even so if some clans share the same sect

Stefano "Walt" Calzighetti
Prince of Pordenone (Italy)
Last edit: 18 Sep 2015 07:19 by Walt.
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18 Sep 2015 07:31 #73200 by drnlmza

The intent here is to keep Dominate as a premiere bleed discipline, but to diversify it out of the box. STMF is a contender to be removed, replaced with perhaps Bonding or Foreshadowing Destruction. Seeing as only Ventrue and Lasombra have DOM as clan disciplines, Bonding may be the better option to give them some stealth.

This array of cards is close to what you'd see in a core set, but in the limited environment of IV it's not going to be quickly supplanted or undermined by other extant cards, such as Govern or Deflection.

If the aim is to have something that people can play, and then hopefully progress to playing with the full set of cards when they're comfortable with the rules and the mechanics, I think you need to capture more of how the discipline works in practice.

This means you really should have Bonding in the set, and probably need one more bounce card, Possibly Redirection,if you want to keep the power level down a bit.

I'd personally drop The Sleeping Mind from the list - it's not that different from Seduction in practice.

National Coordinator
South Africa
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18 Sep 2015 08:14 #73201 by Disco_Stu
Hi Drnlmza,

Good call re: overlap with Sleeping Mind and Seduction. Swap out TSM, add in Redirection. STMF stays out and is replaced with Bonding.

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18 Sep 2015 08:42 #73202 by Disco_Stu
Hi everyone,

Thanks for the feedback to date. There's a broad range of opinions on whether the concept holds up, and if it does then what content should be, and it's pleased to see people engage with the idea rather than dismiss out of hand.

More clans = more unique disciplines, more strategies, but also more concepts for new players to get their head around.

Fewer clans = unique disciplines are more obvious point of difference and may lack synergy, strategies may seem overly stunted to existing players... but, easier entry point.

If we go for :bruj: :malk: :tore: :vent: for Camarilla, :laso: !nosf! :tzim: for Sabbat and :assa: :gang: for Indies, we have
:ani: 3
:aus: 3
:cel: 3
:dom: 2
:for: 2
:obf: 3
:pot: 3
:pre: 3
With Dementation, Obtenebration, Vicissitude, Quietus and Protean all featuring once.
Moving Giovanni into the Assamite slot gives us 2 Celerity, 3 Dominate, 2 Obfuscate and 4 Potence - not necessarily imbalanced but a slightly different emphasis - stealth is rarer, 'Finnish Politics' more common. (If we wanted to add a tenth clan into the mix, the Gangrel antitribu would actually be the most balancing option, but even their biggest fans may be hard-pressed to argue that they fill a completely necessary design slot. We're not looking for balance necessarily - rather, compelling gameplay that distils VTES' essence into a more limited pool of cards.)

With the above in mind, are there any strong views on a clan that must, absolutely and unconditionally, fall into the IV set of cards - i.e., that the game wouldn't be sufficiently identifiable as VTES if they were absent? Setites' corruption-temptation tech is both interesting and broadly enjoyable to play with and against, but do we NEED them? Do the Ravnos' tricks make them so memorable? What about the various antitribu? Or the Tremere (... I don't hate Thuamaturgy that much...)? Hard choices have to be made in this homeopathic approach to Vampire's sprawling ideas.

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18 Sep 2015 08:58 #73203 by BenPeal

Yes, in this set there is no Thaumaturgy. It's got cool effects but without a clear design brief beyond 'do cool stuff that many other disciplines can't'

In Jyhad, Thaumaturgy's combat was designed to be a counter to Fortitude, with cards like Theft of Vitae, Drain Essence, Blood Rage, and Blood Fury. There's an anti-weapon angle with the latter two cards, as well.
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