Proposal for a new set: 'IV'

Picking the ones I have an issue with...

Disco_Stu wrote:

Harass

I prefer Ambush to Harass, although it's obviously closer to Bum's Rush (which I agree should be there).

Disco_Stu wrote:

Third Tradition: Progeny

If you're going for a baby-maker, it seems unfair to deny the Sabbat one. At which point, either consider adding Creation Rites, or switch to Embrace more generally.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Zillah's Tears

While hardly a terrible card, there are probably better alternatives.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Notorious Brutality

Not a bad card, but possibly a little weird in a base set where "infernal" doesn't exist.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Stealth Ritus

Erk, 2 blood for an as-announced +1 stealth. Yuck. If you want disciplineless stealth, add Creepshow Casino to the as-yet-unwritten list of masters.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Boxed In

Not really a fan, given how generally weak it is overall. I'd rather see presses come in through other avenues, mostly alternative levels / incidental extras on disciplined cards e.g. Immortal Grapple, Flash.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Lucky Blow

Swap for a Target card - Head or Vitals, I don't care.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Agate Talisman

Too weak. A quick search of the TWDA on SecretLibrary turns up zero hits.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Catacombs
Cooler

Not a huge fan of either. Cooler isn't completely unplayable, but there are much better blood gain options generally.

Disco_Stu wrote:

IR Goggles

Have you considered Light Intensifying Goggles? The maneuver on the first round isn't much of a restriction, and the aim recycling is fun - if you add in a Target card. Neither is the best card in the world, mind.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Nightstick

Urgh. If you're looking for defensive equipment, toss in Leather Jacket instead.

Feels like you're missing:

- Ivory Bow
- a big gun of some sort (possibly Assault Rifle, but it would definitely not be a common card)
- Leather Jacket, as above

Disco_Stu wrote:

Camarilla Examplary

Not really a great card. Very weak when you look at the loss of opportunity of playing a KRC or whatever.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Can't Take It With You
...
Diversity

Both feel a little too random for a newbie-friendly base set. Diversity probably encourages play that won't be beneficial to them until they have more experience. Can't Take It With You makes it a little too easy for a newbie to accidentally hose someone cross table when the thinking goes "Well, it hurts my prey some too" - they have to actively decide to be bastardly with a KRC.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Tribunal Judgment

Mostly terrible. Perhaps consider Public Villification instead?

Disco_Stu wrote:

Closed Session

But no Private Audience? I'd rather go with both or neither.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Coterie Tactics

Too much card text for too little win.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Eluding the Arms of Morpheus
Forced Awakening
...
Minor Irritation

No On the Qui Vive? Minor Irritation is quite poor.

Disco_Stu wrote:

JS Simmons Esq.
Mr Winthrop

I'd add in Tasha Morgan or Robert Carter.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Notorious Brutality

This definitely feels an odd fit with the "non-infernal" text, so I'd drop it. I don't have great replacement suggestions. Maybe Momentary Delay?

Disco_Stu wrote:

Amaranth
Boxed In
Concealed Weapon
Fake Out
Lucky Blow
Taste of Vitae
Weighted Walking Stick

I'd add the disciplineless Dodge here, just so there's more coverage of the various combat options for everyone.

Disco_Stu wrote:

.44 Magnum
Agate Talisman
Baseball Bat
Camera Phone
Catacombs
Cooler
Helicopter
IR Goggles
Nightstick
Palatial Estate
Sport Bike
White Phosphorus Grenade
Wooden Stake

Defintiely missing Leather Jacket.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Banner of Neutrality
Closed Session
Coterie Tactics
Delaying Tactics
Eluding the Arms of Morpheus
Forced Awakening
Lost in Translation
Minor Irritation
Pack Tactics
Poison Pill

I'd add either WWEF or On the Qui Vive, just so there's more variety in the cost for wake effects.

Not sure about Poison Pill and Banner of Neutrality. Both are quite weak, and don't see that much play (Poison Pill mainly shows up in Imbued decks). I might try sneak in Keep it Simple as generic reduce instead.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Picking the ones I have an issue with...

Disco_Stu wrote:

Third Tradition: Progeny

If you're going for a baby-maker, it seems unfair to deny the Sabbat one. At which point, either consider adding Creation Rites, or switch to Embrace more generally.

Fair point. I figured giving it to Cam only would give them a different feel out of the box than Sabbat, but for the purposes of evenhandeness let's go -1 Third Tradition, +1 Embrace.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

Notorious Brutality

Not a bad card, but possibly a little weird in a base set where "infernal" doesn't exist.

Agreed, I totally forgot about the infernal aspect. Consider it cut! Any other thoughts on what would be a good 'OMG Sabbat are scary bastards?' card? Maybe make this a Master slot for Sabbat instead, as they've got plenty of interesting master effects.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

Stealth Ritus

Erk, 2 blood for an as-announced +1 stealth. Yuck. If you want disciplineless stealth, add Creepshow Casino to the as-yet-unwritten list of masters.

I added it in on the basis that stealth may be rarer for some clans, but thinking again about he proposed Sabbat clan spread that won't be an issue. Cut.

Momentary Delay is in, as suggested by Drnlmza.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

Boxed In

Not really a fan, given how generally weak it is overall. I'd rather see presses come in through other avenues, mostly alternative levels / incidental extras on disciplined cards e.g. Immortal Grapple, Flash.

Agreed, cut. And, replaced with Dodge as suggested by Drnlmza.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

Lucky Blow

Swap for a Target card - Head or Vitals, I don't care.

Target Vitals is often better than Potence combat as it is. In a limited format, I fear almost more so. Target Head seems reasonable though.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

Agate Talisman

Too weak. A quick search of the TWDA on SecretLibrary turns up zero hits.

No worries, cut.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

Catacombs
Cooler

Not a huge fan of either. Cooler isn't completely unplayable, but there are much better blood gain options generally.

Cooler sees play a wee bit in our meta and I think newer players can grasp the concept of delayed blood gain, but happy with Catacombs being cut.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

IR Goggles

Have you considered Light Intensifying Goggles? The maneuver on the first round isn't much of a restriction, and the aim recycling is fun - if you add in a Target card. Neither is the best card in the world, mind.

I think LIG's special is a but corner case, even with a Target Head added to the mix. Cut both, replace with Jackie Therman?

Nightstick cut, Leather Jacket added, as is Assault Rifle (or would a Kpist or something newer be better?)

What do people think about permanent at damage? I threw in WP Grenades to make it a little rarer, but Ivory Bow changes the equation a little don't you think?

Will lose Can't Take It With You and Camarilla Exemplary. I think that with a smaller vampire pool, newer players may be more likely to branch out into multiclan decks that'd benefit from Diversity, but happy to cut if others don't agree.

Any other thoughts on votes to add in, beyond the overlooked Public Vilification?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Disco_Stu wrote:

Closed Session

But no Private Audience? I'd rather go with both or neither.

Again, this was my attempt to differentiate Camarilla from Sabbat in style of play. I think neither, rather than both. Having both may lead to too many occasions of shutting down decks rather than encouraging interaction.

I'll lose Coterie Tactics and Banner of Neutrality, add OTQV and Keep it Simple.

That's four down, overall - mostly from sect-specific effects.

Cheers

Disco

Walt wrote:

Well this seems to be a great idea.
I really appreciate that you guys are thinking on long term about game development and his survival

Like Alek above I think that rules should be reduced removing a lot of marginal effects for a base set, like he suggest plus advanced vampires and cards with multi disciplines

also this set need to be carefully planned. If we want to have all (13) mains clans inside there is little room for cards. Like:

12 vampires for each clan: 156
4 clan's card for each clan: 52
8 cards for each discipline: 136
8 cards for each set: 24
Generic actions: 4
Generic modifiers: 4
Generic allies: 6
Generic combats: 8
Generic equipments: 8
Generic masters: 40 (with 17 disciplines cards)
Generic political: 16
Generic Reactions: 4
Generic Retainers: 4

456 cards, 156 vampires and 300 library cards (just an example)

of course if we reduce the number of clans we have more cards slots free

so I think that first this set need to be planned and then we can start to choose which cards need to be placed inside

my 2 cents

Missing events?

Walt wrote:

12 vampires for each clan: 156

Won't need 12 vamps each clan, 6 to 8 would be sufficient if you add vamps that you definitely want more of in your crypt. Possibly aim more for cross clan synergy, open up multi discipline cards to all in lesser form. Add a non-unique vamp for each clan as crypt filler, or one where you can choose sect and clan when it enters play.

Walt wrote:

Generic masters: 40 (with 17 disciplines cards)

Replace 17 discipline cards with a generic one like "spontaneous power", but better (trifle, less pool cost, limit discipline choices). Stack 3 discipline options in a single trifle master (choose ani or pro or for). Lots of options here.

So less cards needed for crypt and discipline masters opens up room across the board for more cards that actually add flavour and faster gameplay to the game. I think at least 80% of the cards in a new set should be aimed for speed and (including alternate options over bleed/vote) ousting (like enticement, smiling jack, 419 operation, tension in the ranks, dragonbound etc).

Disco_Stu wrote:

Any other thoughts on what would be a good 'OMG Sabbat are scary bastards?' card?

Not so sure about scary, but as a decent Sabbat utility card, Abbot. Scratch that, it's already included, I was just looking in the wrong place.

Fiendish Tongue? Although the anarch text on it would be a bit weird for the same reason as Notorious Brutality's infernal text.

As well as masters and clan cards, indicate the brutality through card art on Sabbat-y cards?

Disco_Stu wrote:

Cooler sees play a wee bit in our meta and I think newer players can grasp the concept of delayed blood gain, but happy with Catacombs being cut.

Delayed blood gain over four turns at the cost of a pool is quite a hefty price, compared to - say - Taste of Vitae, Giant's Blood, Voter Captivation, Restoration, Festivo dello Estinto, Hungry Coyote etc. New players (and quite a few experienced players!) often overestimate just how long a game is, in terms of number of turns.

Disco_Stu wrote:

I think LIG's special is a but corner case, even with a Target Head added to the mix. Cut both, replace with Jackie Therman?

I like Jackie, but I have a soft spot for reteainers.

Disco_Stu wrote:

as is Assault Rifle (or would a Kpist or something newer be better?)

AK-47 might be better. I'm just thinking that having the option for a big, scary gun is nice.

Disco_Stu wrote:

What do people think about permanent at damage? I threw in WP Grenades to make it a little rarer, but Ivory Bow changes the equation a little don't you think?

It depends what your design goals are. If it's a base set for new players to enter constructed, Ivory Bow is very, very good. If it's draft, Ivory Bow is at the very top end of the power curve, yes.

One possibility is to have DRAFT: text on a few power cards. On Ivory Bow - which has very short card text - it would be relatively easy to tweak its power in draft games, if you wanted.

Disco_Stu wrote:

Any other thoughts on votes to add in, beyond the overlooked Public Vilification?

Disputed Territory. Possibly Rumors of Gehenna.

Kudos for trying to make it easier for new players to access Vtes.