Proposal for a new set: 'IV'

Disco_Stu wrote:

With Dementation, Obtenebration, Vicissitude, Quietus and Protean all featuring once.
Moving Giovanni into the Assamite slot gives us 2 Celerity, 3 Dominate, 2 Obfuscate and 4 Potence - not necessarily imbalanced but a slightly different emphasis - stealth is rarer, 'Finnish Politics' more common.

You don't have to make stealth rare, really. There are quite a lot of ways of generating moderate stealth (around +2) with fairly core cards. Gangrel potentially bring you Earth Control and Form of Mist. The Giovanni can bring you Spectral Divination and Bonding, and not-actually-stealth Call of the Hungry Dead. Vicissitude can bring you Changeling and Plasmic Form. All cards I'd think of including. Lasombra, Malkavians and !Nosferatu have obvious avenues for stealth. Toreador and Brujah have slightly fewer stealth options(*) - but that's not affected by the Giovanni/Assamite switch. The Ventrue have some options in Bonding, and possibly some options in Day Op/Daring the Dawn if you take that route. There's also nothing stopping you splashing a bit of Obfuscate or whatever onto a few mid-cap vampires.

(Plus, obviously, a bunch of actions start at +1 already, like votes.)



(*) Resist Earth's Grasp is kinda cool. But also, they should probably still have access to Majesty for get-blocked-and-untap, as do the Ventrue.

Walt wrote:

Well this seems to be a great idea.
I really appreciate that you guys are thinking on long term about game development and his survival

Like Alek above I think that rules should be reduced removing a lot of marginal effects for a base set, like he suggest plus advanced vampires and cards with multi disciplines

also this set need to be carefully planned. If we want to have all (13) mains clans inside there is little room for cards. Like:

12 vampires for each clan: 156
4 clan's card for each clan: 52
8 cards for each discipline: 136
8 cards for each set: 24
Generic actions: 4
Generic modifiers: 4
Generic allies: 6
Generic combats: 8
Generic equipments: 8
Generic masters: 40 (with 17 disciplines cards)
Generic political: 16
Generic Reactions: 4
Generic Retainers: 4

456 cards, 156 vampires and 300 library cards (just an example)

of course if we reduce the number of clans we have more cards slots free

so I think that first this set need to be planned and then we can start to choose which cards need to be placed inside

my 2 cents

I really like your approach, and I think we could take this opportunity to achieve different objectives (we should establish them as priority, I will post some as an idea) :

1. Enlarge the player base
2. Make the learning curve more simple
3. Making the game able to be played in 1v1? (I'm just taking Ben Peal's idea, which I like)

Obviously, point 2, and 3 are supposed to be a sub-objective for objective 1.

This said, I think we don't only need to choose X cards (to be established by game designers/community, depending on the objectives) for each category, but also maybe "fix" or "create" new cards that represent a core mechanic and adapt it so it can be played in a 1v1 game.

For example, I wouldn't allow any card that makes a duel almost unbeareble (Pentex, Sensory Deprivation, Banishment etc.).

Another example are bounces. For example, I wouldn't introduce in this set more than 1 card that allows to bounce per discipline (for example Redirection for DOM and Telepathic Misdirection for AUS). I would also modify this cards so they are playable in 1v1 (well, Telepathic Misdirection needs no change since it actually gives intercept at inferior, but I would probably remove the blood cost then).

Example:

Redirection v.4

[Reaction] Reaction

[Dominate] Dominate


[dom] Only usable when a vampire is bleeding you. Reduce the acting vampire's bleed by 2.
[DOM] Only usable when a vampire is bleeding you. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the acting vampire's controller. That acting vampire is now bleeding that Methuselah.


Taking Walt's idea I would make some smooth changes, but nothing would be definitive since the cards are chosen to evaluate power:

10 vampires for each clan (no group limitation, 1 vampire from each capacity from 2 to 11): 120
2 clan's card for each clan: 26
8 cards for each discipline: 136 --> maybe 10 for each discipline? (needs checking)
2 cards for each sect (including independent vampires): 8 --> this point is not very clear, will this include the sect's titles (like Second Trad etc.) ? I would make it even simpler and say 2 cards for each sect exclusively (not titles).
Generic actions: 4 --> I would maybe increase it, need checking
Generic modifiers: 4
Generic allies: 6
Generic combats: 8
Generic equipments: 8
Generic masters: 40 (with 17 disciplines cards) --> I would remove triffle and master-out-of turn mechanics (to be reviewed)
Generic political: 16 --> I would say that with less cards (around 10 at most) it should be OK, since I would remove Banishment and complicated cards)
Generic Reactions: 4 --> Maybe increase to 8, need checking
Generic Retainers: 4

This would make a total of:

120 vampires
256 library cards
376 total


As I said I would make some modifications on some cards and/or make the choosing taking into account some criteria:

1. No double disciplines
2. No triffle mechanic
3. No master-out-of-turn mechanic
4. No events
5. Min crypt limit = 10
6. Library card amount = 60
7. No “Once per game” cards
8. No double effect cards (ex: Govern the Unaligned). For example for bleed cards we could make a sort of Intimidation [DOM] and Legal Manipulations

. Except, of course, bounce cards so they would be able to play in 1v1.

9. No combo cards. Cards should fulfill only 1 role.

10. Priorise new design vs. old design



I would also likely boost more a set of 13 “starter-demo” decks, than opening a new really limited deckbuilding format.





Maybe it would be possible to include the label “Demo card, not for legal play” or something like this so we can use material already edited. It would be maybe nice to prepare a set of playable starter decks following this criteria for princes to organize demo games and/or non-ranked tournaments or whatever.



From a legal point of view, if we include this label, would it be possible to print them as “real” cards (with a similar format)?





We should also think that if maybe we manage to make the game appealing for new players, it will probably unblock the current rights situation.

alek wrote:

While I'm a fan of making things easier and would be happy if some mechanics/ cards would be removed from vtes, I don't think that such a big limitation of available clans/ disciplines/ cards is a good idea. IMO it would just make things uninteresting for experienced players. My proposition would go more toward removing tricky/ clunky/ cornercase/ underused mechanics than limiting clans/disciplines, etc.

I am going to split this inot those agree with and those I dont
Agreed (with reasons)
Remove:
- all Imbued mechanics and cards
Why? i hate the fucking imbued, simple enough
- cold iron vulnerability
extremely cornercase, agreed
- burn option
Very rarely used, but there are some decks that would suffer
- Research Area
Think this is a god mechanic, just underdeveloped, but i would actually veer to keeping it, Shalmath LOVES it

Againt, with reasons.
- slave mechanic
The only reason that you listed that could make this make your list is tricky. Tupdog decks work. It is also a linchpin for a LOT of gargoyle decks.
- red list mechanics
Hell no. I have far too mane red list decks, and find the mechanic far too interesting to agree with this.
- maybe anarchs
Um, lol no? Next set is in fact an anarch set. Becuase YOU find it hard is not a reason to remove it. Go check TWDA decks for anarch decks. Many of them
- maybe events
Again, hell no. This mechanic is very cool, easy to understand, widely used and simple. Where does it fit any of the four reasons you gave?

alek wrote:

Those are the elements which, when removed, would make vtes more easy to play and are not bringing much value to game (at least in my opinion - not countung anarchs)

Blooded Sand if I understand correctly the point here is not to remove forever those rules, but just to avoid them in the new base set in order to semplify the access to new players

Blooded Sand, what Walt said; consider this a limited format if that helps, a format designed with the intent to showcase what makes the game so awesome. I enjoy playing the various rules and mechanisms that you mention, but that doesn't mean I think they work well for showcasing the essence of VTES. What makes something quintessentially VTES is going to differ for different people, which is why this needs to be a curated collection rather than one person's view.

Cheers

Disco Stu

To help out a little, maybe it's time to nail some proverbial colours to the flag. Putting aside the disciplines and clans, let's look at what minion cards could look like in IV. Pick this apart as you see fit: remember what we're going for here, which is compelling, interesting, something useful for new and old players alike, and something that can work well with other card effects to showcase the interesting aspects of our great game.

And in a fairly haphazard order, here we go...

Abbot
Arson
Bum's Rush
Computer Hacking
Harass
Third Tradition: Progeny
Zillah's Tears

Bribes
Change of Target
Notorious Brutality
Stealth Ritus

Gregory Winter
Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
Procurer
Young Bloods

Amaranth
Boxed In
Concealed Weapon
Fake Out
Lucky Blow
Taste of Vitae
Weighted Walking Stick

.44 Magnum
Agate Talisman
Baseball Bat
Camera Phone
Catacombs
Cooler
Helicopter
IR Goggles
Nightstick
Palatial Estate
Sport Bike
White Phosphorus Grenade
Wooden Stake

Anarchist Uprising
Ancient Influence
Archon
Banishment
Camarilla Examplary
Can't Take It With You
Cardinal Benediction
Consanguineous Boon
Diversity
Kine Resources Contested
Neonate Breach
Political Strangelehold
Praxis Seizure : ...
Reinforcements
Tribunal Judgment

Banner of Neutrality
Closed Session
Coterie Tactics
Delaying Tactics
Eluding the Arms of Morpheus
Forced Awakening
Lost in Translation
Minor Irritation
Pack Tactics
Poison Pill

JS Simmons Esq.
Mr Winthrop


... Blimey, that was a bit. Haven't even touched masters obviously. But at least there's something for people to now throw praise or dirt at.

Cheers

Disco Stu