file Upcomming Bloodlines set, what's needed?

02 May 2016 01:25 #76731 by brettscho
While I don't think the idea of putting maneuvers on melee weapons is bad, I think it's important to limit them: "Optional maneuver, only usable to maneuver to close range." Why? Because you don't want these weapons to be used in a defensive manner. Imagine somebody with a broad sword using it to run to long range to get away from a close-range combat monster. Not pretty or desirable.

The range issue is key to the difference between guns and melee weapons. Guns work best at long range (their card might as well say "Optional maneuver, only usable to maneuver to long range"), but long range dramatically reduces the possibility of hit-back. That means that it's both an offensive and defensive way to run combat. Melee weapons, on the other hand, provide no such defense. Maybe the idea is that you sacrifice the relative safety of a gun for the possibility to do more damage?

I also think their should be risk to melee weapons - they shouldn't always work. And allowing them to strike at range and strike while under grapple effectively removes the two major weaknesses that they have.

Finally, if you want to resist grapples, I'd avoid making them hand strikes (as now the temptation is to run Immortal Grapples and melee weapons), and instead give them a grapple canceling ability like Joumlon's Axe (you could even have the cancellation cost a blood if you want). This seems more thematic, and less prone to abuse. But again, just theorizing / speculating here.

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02 May 2016 02:26 #76732 by self biased
I brought this up a while ago, but do melee weapons suck because celerity/guns work so well? Would melee weapons be better if guns only minimally benefit from additional strikes?

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02 May 2016 06:11 #76733 by alek
IMO melee weapons are fine where they are with possibility to play death seeker. It would be a waste of design space in new expansions if design team add cards for such a niche thing instead of other cards.

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02 May 2016 08:41 #76734 by Lönkka

I'd love to see more viable melee weapon strategies, but I'm not sure essentially turning them into essentially a better gun is the right way forward.


Problem with melee weapons involves the balance with guns , melee strikes vs combat ends (and less so, Grapples), and now also !Salubri.

VERY difficult thing to balance ritgh, but after the initial blunders like Bastard Sword we have gotten some nice and functioning melee weapons like Weighted Walking Stick.

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02 May 2016 11:23 #76736 by ReverendRevolver
Let's look at the most useful melee weapon for help: the stick.

Now, WWS goes to splinters eventually, and sooner than that if you get all TV with it, but zip gun/wws are unique in that you don't blow an action to get it, don't need to conceal/disguise it, and cost no pool. How much of an advantage is not needing an action or card slot? Huge, but we only have the 2 red carded weapons.
Why not make melee that cost pool and are combat equippable?

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02 May 2016 11:30 #76737 by chrisn101
Well, judging by the weigh-ins I can see that this has been much-discussed over the years then. I'm also assuming that errata-ing the current weapon cards is out of the question due to the difficulties it'd bring.

Personally I'd never understood why a weapon grants a manoeuvre in VTES. Dedicated equipment like a vehicle or IR Goggles, fair enough, and the special on Sniper Rifle when blocking makes sense, but there's nothing inherent in most weapons that should allow it.

Has 'Reach' been explored? E.g. a pole-axe would sensibly cancel an opposing minion's manoeuvre by dint of it being so long. Meat Hook sorta put the principle into action.

Re: Self-Biased's comments, have bullets/reload actions (e.g. SNSs and .44s has three bullet counters for the combat, or maybe X pool cost equals X bullet counters)? So you could use them all up with a Blur in the first round and have nothing in the second round (or perhaps must spend a 'strike' reloading). Otherwise I've always thought that the local LARP house rules of 'one gun action per round' works quite well.

Another issue sounds to be Discipline (therefore Power too?) enhancements making melee weapons too powerful. What about newer weapons could be designed so that they can't be enhanced (that is, more strength, made aggravated) in this fashion directly. However, environmental effects (e.g. Dawn Operation) and strength reduction (e.g. Blight) would stand.

Should there be a new category focusing on hand strike enhancers? Brass Knuckles and push daggers are not technically melee weapons.

So, just as an example of the previous two paragraphs:

:equipment: Push Dagger (v2)
2 :pool:
Hand weapon. Strike: hand strike at +1 damage each strike, and you may cancel a maneuver granted by another weapon equipment once each combat. Damage from this strike may not be enhanced by Discipline or Power card played by the owner within this combat.

My apologies if this has all been suggested before - I've lurked on this board for less than two years.

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