Upcomming Bloodlines set, what's needed?

I haven't deeply analised bloodlines, but I think that just giving them more toys to be playable "alone" will be defiating whole idea of clan/bloodline division. And it'll be generally boring.

There are not so many effects in VtES, so generally it'll lead us just for the copy of existing clan deck with some minor "flavour". Like Kiasud SB. Yea, it's powerfull, but what meaningfull it really adds to the game which already got Malks and Lasombra SB?

Idea of having 50/50 crypt with different discipline spread, but which can work together, looks much more interesting to me.

elotar wrote:

I haven't deeply analised bloodlines, but I think that just giving them more toys to be playable "alone" will be defiating whole idea of clan/bloodline division. And it'll be generally boring.

There are not so many effects in VtES, so generally it'll lead us just for the copy of existing clan deck with some minor "flavour". Like Kiasud SB. Yea, it's powerfull, but what meaningfull it really adds to the game which already got Malks and Lasombra SB?

Idea of having 50/50 crypt with different discipline spread, but which can work together, looks much more interesting to me.

I'm not a believer in the idea that there should be clans and subclans. It didn't work when Bloodlines got printed, where Ahrimanes, for instance, were immediately played on their own, nor does my sense of player interests suggest people like being forced to mix one clan with another.

Having said that, the general concept of creating more mixed clan decks is something I could see the game trying to push. Treaty of Laibach is just a really dumb card for various reason, including that a number of FoS already have Thaum, but seeing more !Brujah/Lasombra decks or Ravnos/Tzimisce decks or whatever would make for a more diverse game. Bloodlines could help with filling out what amounts to three clan decks, if ... if they didn't basically function the way they currently do. The outferiors of bloodline disciplines just really don't give the power to make it worthwhile to work well with others, and, often, the outferiors are in disciplines that synergize horribly with what the bloodlines are offering.

Really powerful For/Nec cards can be a starting point for actually justifying mixing HoS and Samedi, though it also brings in various Giovanni who don't need help. Blessed Resilience was interesting enough that I already had a deck that I think went 50/50 on the clans, but that's one archetype.

Anyway, if you have few cards to work with, I'm not enthused by trying to push a role where you mix or support, as a problem with encouraging mixing is that it tends to decrease deck diversity, as can be seen with Gargoyles versus, say, DoC or even BB. HttB would have been the set to try to do more things with mix and match as it had the card slots to support more possibilities and that set feels like it really focused more on making monobloodline decks better. Even more of an extreme was introducing the non-discipline disciplines without introducing a host of infernal vampires that weren't Baali.

ICL wrote:

The outferiors of bloodline disciplines just really don't give the power to make it worthwhile to work well with others, and, often, the outferiors are in disciplines that synergize horribly with what the bloodlines are offering.

This is key. Idea of giving third effect for bloodline disciplines was cool, but execution was mostly terrible.

elotar wrote:

ICL wrote:

The outferiors of bloodline disciplines just really don't give the power to make it worthwhile to work well with others, and, often, the outferiors are in disciplines that synergize horribly with what the bloodlines are offering.

This is key. Idea of giving third effect for bloodline disciplines was cool, but execution was mostly terrible.

I've only used a few in the same deck as the bloodlines discipline; outferior renewed vigor to cycle a card several times. Maybe fortitude lord of serenity once. Loads of times spirit marionette for my !ventrue in my Matthias deck.
Other stuff I use outferior like nose of the hound for aus , but many things, especially gargoyles, have crap for outferior. Most vis has tham outferior, but its always something I'd almost never use for thaum, since gargoyle is who I want in combat. It also does nothing for non slaves.

Flames of the netherworld only is "do I want thaum or dai?" In Petaniqua for me, and, as mentioned, most outferior can be OK as a stand alone (the temporis thing for 1 blood in potence?) But do almost nothing for bloodline. Even the temporis obf 1blood effective management would have helped Samedi ATON more than Trujah. Its an opportunity for sure.

Outferiors were a great idea to allow bloodlines to be paired with other clans, but their execution is often flat. Take Aura Absorption as an example. It's outferior discipline is Auspex. What clan is going to be paired with Kiasyd that have Auspex? Venture Anti or Tremere (1 common discipline)? And then the ability is just so horrible: burn 1 blood for 1 intercept. Why, oh god, why?