Submission: Celerity Refinement

jblacey wrote:

Sydnelson wrote:

Name: Celerity Refinement
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Celerity
Card text:
Additional strike.
Only usable after resolution of a successful action. Unlock this vampire and they can play this card again this turn, with the cost increased by 1 blood (cumulative).

As written this card is wallpaper.

Uh, wah?

It gives multi-acting capabilities/potential to a number of decks that don't have access to that at the moment. That's unlikely to turn out to be wallpaper.

jblacey wrote:

4. It seems that you want to support a general unlock mechanism for celerity. Frankly, that is bad because other disciplines do it already and they are clearly better.

What? Lost in Crowds is generally better than Earth Control or Shadow Play, but they can all happily exist in the world because they enable different decks.

Decks that find Freak Drive - or one of the other untap mechanisms in the game - more convenient could continue to use those, much like adding Loss to Quietus doesn't stop people using Dominate and Dementation. This allows opportunities for, say, the Toreador or Assamites to multi-act, without having to stray into For/Tha/Ser etc.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Uh, wah?

It gives multi-acting capabilities/potential to a number of decks that don't have access to that at the moment. That's unlikely to turn out to be wallpaper.

Okay great! Let's follow that logic. What decks do you think would use this card?

Not Toreador or Toreador Anti both have better options.
Brujah or Brujah Anit? Maybe, but to be fair... I am using Fortitude in these crypts and prefer Forced March over Freak Drive. Using Celerity for Stealth, Combat, and Unlock is interesting.. but I am already burning too much blood to play for Freak Drive.

Assamites and Gangrel Anti?
Crypts are more an issue here.
Let's start with Gangrel Anti with
0 vampires in group 1.
5 vampires in group 2.
4 vampires in group 3.
7 vampires in group 4.
3 vampires in group 5.
0 vampires in group 6.

Only about half of these vampires are even playable. The best two Mitru and Enkidu already have fortitude and would probably still use Forced March instead.

Assamites with are extremely top heavy.
7/10s of their vampires with are 7+ capacity.

Are you thinking bloodline clans or mixed low level celerity crypt?
Maybe mostly 4 -5 capacity with Sarah Brando as the star?

Reasonable. I have built it. It is pretty fun deck, but it's problem it needs more intercept to be able to block... it can not survive a heavy bleeder... at all. Especially, if you plan to pay for guns.

What? Lost in Crowds is generally better than Earth Control or Shadow Play, but they can all happily exist in the world because they enable different decks.

You are talking about general card quality and I am talking about comparable quality. For the most part crypts with all in the same crypt are uncommon. Gangrel Anti are one of the only clans where they really mix. That said, the biggest reason to choose between or in that crypt is based on what it is trying to accomplish and the consistency of the discipline in the crypt. Both all things being equal you always choose the better card. Thus Earth Control or Lost in Crowds... you are probably making the choice based on your crypt and not card the merits of why Lost in Crowds is superior to Earth Control.

Decks that find Freak Drive - or one of the other untap mechanisms in the game - more convenient could continue to use those, much like adding Loss to Quietus doesn't stop people using Dominate and Dementation.

Not sure what argument you are trying to make here. I like deck diversity, but this card doesn't add any that I can see. I would love to be proven wrong.

This allows opportunities for, say, the Toreador or Assamites to multi-act, without having to stray into For/Tha/Ser etc.

So... I kinda mentioned it above but I will get specific here.

Toreador have multi action enablers that don't require a discipline or a blood for that matter. The best being Alexandra and Masika. That said, I understand what you are getting at... you are suggesting that "any Toreador or Assamites with " could now effectively multiple act without requiring fortitude.

So Felicia Mostrom in a Toreador or maybe Abd al-Rashid in Assamites?

And I am saying two things.

1. Would you use celerity for blood to unlock that only worked at Superior?
2. Would you have room in your deck to add them vs including something else?

The real problem is... that if you want to multi act.. you have to have multiple actions you want to do in a turn (that are worth doing) and you are generally including less actions or reactions as a result.

So going further down the Rabbit Hole... what would I cut for this card in my Toreador gun deck or what I cut from my Silent Sniper (Assamites) deck and nothing came to mind. I would cut *nothing* from either deck to make room for this card. Thus... wallpaper.

So how to we make it less wallpaper? Well being able to multiact at instead of seems like a great first step. My Anarch gun deck runs Diversions so the inferior text of this card would be irrelevant anyway.

Maybe I am missing something. Anyway that was my reasoning.

I'm all for giving this one a go!

Basic level is just filler in the usual manner (and that is just fine, occasionally you decide to use it too) but the superior is what you play this for.

The similar "gets more expensive after each use" clause as in Nocturn is good idea for limiting the potential abuse.

Good job Fernando!

And I rather like jblacey's Speed Perfection too!

Would be great getting them both. Celerity, especially at basic, is rather knee-capped a discipline that it would need all the love it possibly can to make it better...

I agree with Lonkka. Both Fernando's Celerity Refinement and Jblacey's Speed Perfection would be nice and different options, occupying slightly different timing windows.

With the City Gangrel like Harmut Stover, Luke Fellows, Xendil Charmer, and Synner-G, Celerity Refinement would let them untap after completing almost any action (which they will have the stealth to do.) It would give the the City Gangrel be the niche of being the best multi-actors I think. Speed Perfection makes Celerity combat decks even nastier. I could City Gangrel using both cards in very different decks.

jblacey wrote:

How would you feel about something like this:

Speed Perfection

Play before range is determined. Only one Speed Perfection may be play each combat.
: Cards requiring or cost one less blood this combat.
: As above and unlock this vampire.

This card is way over powered !

Free untap usable any number of time in the same turn is IMO a bad thing for the game because it opens too many abuse.

And frankly it makes Zephyr (an already meh card) wallpaper.