Proxies and the VEKN

Dorrinal wrote:

I'm in favor of proxies, but to suggest that the official player's network violate copyright is foolish at best. In addition, to suggest that we proxy any less than every legal card in existence is to miss the point of proxies entirely.

Allowing everything to be proxied would be the death knell to any hopes of a company picking up the game. But then, so is the fact that new players can't fully enter the competitive scene unless they can buy the collection of a quitting player. We should look for a balance between these two factors.

The point is to eliminate card availability as a determining factor in the quantity and competitiveness of players. Let everyone start on equal footing; let playing skill, deckbuilding skill, and even luck, determine who is the best.

Suoli wrote:

Dorrinal wrote:

I'm in favor of proxies, but to suggest that the official player's network violate copyright is foolish at best. In addition, to suggest that we proxy any less than every legal card in existence is to miss the point of proxies entirely.

Allowing everything to be proxied would be the death knell to any hopes of a company picking up the game. But then, so is the fact that new players can't fully enter the competitive scene unless they can buy the collection of a quitting player. We should look for a balance between these two factors.

Has your argument changed?

In post number 1176 you indicated

Honestly, Villein and Ashur Tablets are the only cards I would allow. And Ashur Tablets only barely.

Now you are saying that a new player can't be competitive without buying the collection of a quitting player...

Both Ashur Tablets and Villeins are available for purchase on Ebay and, as others have expressed on this forum and other forums, for trade.

If a new player really needs these cards to be competitive, which I personally feel is false and my opinion seems to be supported by the fact that 69-71% of TWD in 2010 didn't use Villeins, then they can obtain them either through Ebay or through trading with other players. Therefore, the need to make proxies at this time is moot.

Gargoylee wrote:

If a new player really needs these cards to be competitive, which I personally feel is false and my opinion seems to be supported by the fact that 69-71% of TWD in 2010 didn't use Villeins, then they can obtain them either through Ebay or through trading with other players. Therefore, the need to make proxies at this time is moot.

This fallacy comes up again and again in this debate. Just because a player can be competitive without access to certain hard-to-get rares, doesn't mean that all players are equally competitive. And it should be obvious that the only way to achieve competitive parity is to allow every player access to every card in unlimited quantity. Then we'll be able to compete in what matters - ability to build effective decks and play the game.

Dorrinal wrote:

Gargoylee wrote:

If a new player really needs these cards to be competitive, which I personally feel is false and my opinion seems to be supported by the fact that 69-71% of TWD in 2010 didn't use Villeins, then they can obtain them either through Ebay or through trading with other players. Therefore, the need to make proxies at this time is moot.

This fallacy comes up again and again in this debate. Just because a player can be competitive without access to certain hard-to-get rares, doesn't mean that all players are equally competitive. And it should be obvious that the only way to achieve competitive parity is to allow every player access to every card in unlimited quantity. Then we'll be able to compete in what matters - ability to build effective decks and play the game.

Unfortunately this fallacy comes up again and again in this debate. Equal access to cards does not achieve competitive parity.

Please remove my necessity to work so that I have more hours to spend playing and testing decks. Please support my dependents so that I don't have to and can have the same hours as somebody without dependents to build effective decks and play the game.

Seriously though, VTES is a CCG. If you don't like that fact, buy the rights to VTES and change that fact.

Gargoylee wrote:

Has your argument changed?

In post number 1176 you indicated

Honestly, Villein and Ashur Tablets are the only cards I would allow. And Ashur Tablets only barely.

Now you are saying that a new player can't be competitive without buying the collection of a quitting player...

I said that a new player can't fully enter the competitive game. They can make a number of tier 1 decks that don't use those cards, as discussed before in this thread.

Both Ashur Tablets and Villeins are available for purchase on Ebay and, as others have expressed on this forum and other forums, for trade.

I found 10 Ashur Tablets for about $10 a piece and a single seller with an unspecified number of Villeins for $15 dollars a piece. I don't agree that they are adequately available for a player base that would ideally be growing.