"...why proxies are not going to be allowed..."

Brum wrote:

Arthur wrote:

Take some pride in your games.

You wanna play hockey, you gotta put on the skates.

Really?
What we are debating is the fact that some people like to play goalie in Hockey and they can't because it is ludicrous to play without the special head protection that only goalies need.
What do you say to those people?

No big caps for you.

"You wanna play with big caps, you gotta put on the Villeins."

For the Nth time:

1. I have all the cards I foresee I'll ever need (until a company picks up the game again).

2. I have felt stronger in favor of proxies than I do now. But not because of any of the arguments of the CON crowd.
If it is good for the game, I don't care if my cards are worth nothing. And that is a paradox right there: if the game is strong -> the cards will be worth more. Always. Even with proxies.
I believe that even for the new players, if someone invests time and money on a project and see it grow and flourish, they will be more satisfied with their choice.
In VtES terms that is: if a player invests time and money on the game and sees their deck improve, they are less likely to abandon the game.
This is a very thin line we are walking. Someday, the money issue might be more of a problem than a positive thing.
We must be open minded to that.
That is all I'm saying.

I got to play goalie in hockey for rep when I was a kid because I was good at it. Not everyone is cut out for a position and if you aren't willing to put the effort into the game, you don't get to play.

I came from a poor working family where my father was a welder and my mom was at home with the kids, but since I wanted to be a goalie So bad, they found the money so it could happen.

I didn't wrap blankets around my legs, put wooden skates on or make my equipment at home.

No. You want to play in organized events. You put some effort into your hobby. The game is already on a level playing field.

Sorry that some people have been playing for over a decade and have amassed GIGANTIC collections.

This isn't Socialist or Commie VTES that boarders on Nanny state hand holding.

Again. Casual play do what you want. Caving in to the demands of proxies in a tournament environment will do more harm than good.

Teach a man to fish and all...

People take the game more seriously and arguably enjoy it more when they are invested in it, otherwise, who cares right?

That favourite band of yours who you've downloaded and burned all their songs without buying a disc etc. That makes you a fan?

All those burned movies you have sitting in a folder. That makes you a collector?

The age of entitlement where everything must be given.

For the record, I only own TWO villeins and work my other decks around that factor. I don't whine about not having a certain card because timmy down the street decided to spend more on the game.

You hate villein? Build a deck around beating the tar out of any vampire that has one set on it. Gangrel Anti work very well for that or a combat/torpor Auspex deck to deny them playing a strike card to end combat.

There are options, but people can be VERY lazy with counter deck construction, just as bad as the people who spam and rely on villein.

Sorry if this comes off a bit aggressive, because I'm not attacking you or anyone personally. It just comes off very juvenile when people whine about not having certain cards, want to play in an organized official event and want a handout when everyone else for YEARS and years has put so much effort into keeping the game going so newer people can enjoy it.


If someone doesn't wanna crack boxes, print your cards, fine tune your deck and go after JUST the cards you need to make that deck. You'll save yourself tons of cash and HAVE those cards you need.

It survived before without proxies, it'll survive again. The cards are out there. Just gotta do a little digging to get them.

Arthur wrote:

Sorry if this comes off a bit aggressive, because I'm not attacking you or anyone personally. It just comes off very juvenile when people whine about not having certain cards, want to play in an organized official event and want a handout when everyone else for YEARS and years has put so much effort into keeping the game going so newer people can enjoy it.

I'm sincerely glad for you for having that kind of sense of pride and accomplishment but not everyone has a similar emotional investment in the collectable aspect of the game. What actually changes for you if those people decide that they want to use proxies? You still get to keep your collection. Who cares if other people don't value it as much as you do?

I am no lawyer, but do they really have to be free or simply printed without a profit? Charging just enough to cover costs is how many non-profit companies operate.

Robba wrote:

I am no lawyer, but do they really have to be free or simply printed without a profit? Charging just enough to cover costs is how many non-profit companies operate.

Well, the few interaction that I have had with big compagny lawyer tend to make me believe that's it's way better to avoid any interaction that they may not agree with.

Also, printing card mean advancing quite a bit of money, with some risk if too many people don't pay, or if some other disaster arrive.

I remember back in 1995, when I started playing the game and got into my local playgroup (about 30 people at that time), that I encountered something some of you may call unbelievable. Here it goes:

- Immortal grapple was an ultra-rare-extremely-expensive card, people were willing to sell their family for it. You were unable to build a viable potence rush deck before Sabbat came out and the card became uncommon (it was still a bitch to get, but a little bit less);
- people were trading expensive rares for wake with evening freshness, since in V:TES times this was the only wake-type card available, a basic card for pretty much every deck, and the demand was insane (lessened a bit with the introduction of forced awakening in Sabbat);
- presence decks were booming, so it was actually a good idea to stock up on majesty, you could literally trade this stuff every time;
- When Sabbat came out, playing Tzimisce was ridiculously tough, first because of the blood cost of vic cards, and - more importantly - breath of the dragon was a bitch to get.

This is just a short list of examples, there could be more (like Dreams, DI, Sensory Depravation etc). Keep in mind that the game was in print back then.

Conclusion? Use the opportunity VEKN set gives to deliver alternatives to "on demand" cards - assuming we really really need them (I honestly believe that we don't).

I didn't see people whining back then, asking for proxies, bitching about availability / price, nothing of that sort. As far as I remember, everybody was having fun, the community was growing, new players were showing up on daily basis. Also, the community was very much against proxies, so none of those were allowed. Somehow we played and were having a blast with the game.I didn't own everything, I had maybe 3 decks with some extra cards for variations, and I was having insane amount of fun with it. Would I mind having more cards? No - I got there eventually (that's what's collecting is all about). Did not having "top" cards stop me from playing and enjoying it? Nope, not at all, it actually got me deeper into the game and into the whole collecting aspect.

It has been mentioned in one post above - apparently we're living in the age of entitlement, when everyone "has the right to own stuff" and should get it for free. Seriously, this is beyond a joke.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it again - proxies will not bring more new players to the game. What they will bring instead is more people netdecking Tier1 stuff and bringing it to tournaments. We'll end up with less variety and less creativity and everyone playing pretty much the same shit over and over again. This is not the game I signed up for, simple as that.

dude_PL wrote:

It has been mentioned in one post above - apparently we're living in the age of entitlement, when everyone "has the right to own stuff" and should get it for free. Seriously, this is beyond a joke.

If you really want to discuss this through sound bites, we're living in an age of empowerment, where people see an opportunity and decide that they want to grasp it. Realistically, who is going to be hurt because of proxies? Why should people not take what they want if they're not hurting anyone?