"...why proxies are not going to be allowed..."

Robba wrote:

I am no lawyer, but do they really have to be free or simply printed without a profit? Charging just enough to cover costs is how many non-profit companies operate.

Would you really want to be heading VEKN if we were to try to find out?

Even though I'm just a NC I'd be quitting my position the day when the organization would announce that after XX days proxies will be allowed. Unless we have written permit from WotC and CCG/WW allowing for proxies.

dude_PL wrote:

And finally, since we're discussing allowing proxies as a concept without bringing any details (again - which cards to proxy?) - I'd like to see the exact list of cards you want to proxy (by "you" I mean all the PRO-proxy people) and the reasoning behind it. Hell, go forth and convince me, maybe I'll change my mind - honestly, I love being proven wrong, we learn from our mistakes and the conclusions we draw from them after all. As things stand now, I remain strongly unconvinced.

The reason I understood for allowing proxies in tournaments was so that the winner of a tournament was decided by player skill, rather than their access to cards.
Of course, currently this problem is solved by players borrowing any cards they require for the tournament.
With the perceived lack of availability of cards into the future, it is possible that there will be less cards to go round. Proxies could then be of benefit.
I don't think proxies in tournaments need to be allowed tomorrow or a year from now, but I don't see the harm in discussing the possiblilty of their use in the future.

Suoli wrote:

Arthur wrote:

Sorry if this comes off a bit aggressive, because I'm not attacking you or anyone personally. It just comes off very juvenile when people whine about not having certain cards, want to play in an organized official event and want a handout when everyone else for YEARS and years has put so much effort into keeping the game going so newer people can enjoy it.

I'm sincerely glad for you for having that kind of sense of pride and accomplishment but not everyone has a similar emotional investment in the collectable aspect of the game. What actually changes for you if those people decide that they want to use proxies? You still get to keep your collection. Who cares if other people don't value it as much as you do?

Go play poker. Chess. Snakes and ladders. I hear that candy land is a wonderful game.

Those are games where you open a box, have all the contents, play and put away. Everyone is on an equal level.

I'm sorry if you have to put some effort into..well...anything that happens to be competitive.

You get out of something, what you put in. If you just want to spam play a game and print cards to play at home DO it. Really. I have friends who do this because they just want to mess around and have fun.

Do we really want to dream up a tournament environment where people might have to quick cut their cards from the paper and put them in sleeves because they didn't have time the night before?

Your opponent gets to deal with substandard printing or barely readable material?

This is a non issue and should never be brought up again.

Select cards given errata that will no longer be printed...I think the community can live with that. I know I can.

I honestly don't care about the "value" of the items in my collection. So this isn't a "save the value of my precious cardboard".

People are very short sighted. So the game is dead now. Will that be forever? Who knows. If we do a good job and keep it going and get an interest in the game again the sky's the limit......unless we allow people to print whatever they want and play in tournaments. That would be like Lilith hammering a thorny stake into Cain's heart. Game over.

I thought the proxies was to bring new players into the game?

If it is just to give current players a chance to play all the decks they want then I see no reason to do it.

The cards are you there, either by ebay, trade or retail, so current players just need to more or less do what they used to.

Also I would like to hear from the people who had people not start playing because of the lack of cards.

Collections of old cards are out there to be bought. You'd be surprised what you can find if you search for local games groups who happen to have a forum and post a topic wanting to scoop up old jyhad and vampire cards.

Ebay. The Net. Your local community. The cards are there.

Potomac Distribution website. Amazing. Get stuff while you can. 50-60 a box.

If you really want to talk about a dead card game that is amazing, lets talk about ICE's Middle Earth. Imagine being a new player trying to scrounge that cardboard out of the gutter to attend a national tournament.

Lemminkäinen wrote:

To be fair, Villein is such a needed card these days and so expensive, that I could see an exception made for it (I believe it was Suoli who suggested that Minion Taps should be allowed to proxy for Villein). Or maybe the expansion should include a Villein substitute that would allow the playing of big caps.

Disclaimer: I have plenty of Villeins, enough for multiple decks, wouldn't need proxying.

Not ... again ... 6$-7$ for a card, that apperently is on top of the power curve of a CCg is not expensive, or if you belive it is, well, then you should maybe see around fr something else.