file "...why proxies are not going to be allowed..."

15 Dec 2011 07:16 #18524 by Sudden Reversal
Simply put, if proxies became legal in sanctioned tournaments I would cease to participate in them. You need to get two new players that will stick it out for every old veteran player that quits.

IMO, anything that drives away our loyal player base is of the utmost detriment to the games survivability going forward.

Incidentally this has nothing to do with card worth, the collection I have access to is a joint one and will NEVER be sold so value is irrelevant. Proxies are fine in casual play and for play testing decks etc. Any needed cards on tournament day should be borrowed or bought.

As for needing proxies for a true test of skill versus Mr. Suitcase, one of the shining attributes of V:tES that sets it apart from other CCG's is that you don't need to spend oodles of money to be competitive. There are many ways to achieve the same ends, maybe not as optimally but effectively nonetheless. This is a great strength of V:tES that lends itself to introducing new players to becoming competitive participants.

If proxies are being touted as getting new players in then I believe it is wide of the mark. There are many other more pressing inhibiting factors such as rules complexity, minimum players requirements, length of time taken to play - all fundamentals of the game.
As for old players leaving, the usual culprits are to blame - time constraints, family commitments, enthusiasm fatigue and most of all lack of local players although you can add proxies to that list for me should it come to pass.

Aaron
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Adelaide
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15 Dec 2011 10:41 #18537 by Brum
I disregard the opinions of people that say that "if you decide to do the opposite of what I agree, I quit the game".
More and more people are coming up with such rhetoric here.
It helps nothing and only declines the debate.
Specially if these claims come from a VEKN volunteer.

I disagree with proxies now.
If you go and read back, I was one of their big advocates. If all these people had said the "if you do it I quit" crap, I would probably still be for proxies.

BTW: I think people should really understand one thing (this also goes for the IP discussion and the New Set discussion):
We have no company releasing or supporting the game.
That's a game changer! (No pun intended)
If you don't understand the implications of this, that's ok.
But try to understand them when they are explained here by very experienced people that have been through this.

If you quit the game because you fail to understand that things have drastically changed (one way or the other), you were already in a bad position in the first place.
Nobody (as VEKN is proving) can hold VtES hostage. So please stop trying.
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15 Dec 2011 11:18 #18540 by Sudden Reversal

I disregard the opinions of people that say that "if you decide to do the opposite of what I agree, I quit the game".


Didn't say I would would quit the game, but that I wouldn't participate in tournaments. See the difference? There is no hostage holding here, just simply stating the facts as they pertain to me.

It isn't an argument in itself Brum despite your attempt to paint it as such, my reasons for not wanting proxies are detailed later which you have failed to address.

Be that as it may, proxy introduction into tournaments is a topic due to player attrition, so one way or the other it IS about people leaving the game. If one policy drives away long standing players you damn well better hope that more new ones are coming in as a result.

Aaron
Archbishop
Adelaide
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15 Dec 2011 18:25 #18569 by Zenedar
I'm a relatively new player (been playing since summer this year i believe) and i'll put in my input. Finding the cards wasn't the problem for me at first since i got to borrow friends decks to try out. Now though, when I believe I've gotten the hang of the mechanics and I've started to build my own decks, finding the cards I want to try is difficult. I have had the opportunity to borrow some cards for my own deck but playing a simple weenie dominate deck starts to get dull after a while :). Luckily the players around me lets me use proxies to fill in the gaps in the decks I've built and want to try out. The first challenge is the game mechanics which can be intimidating but the second challenge for new players that gets past the first one is the cards.

I understand though that it's possible to get cards if you work hard. Maybe there could be some form of "Little League Tournament" with a few tables during the big tournaments where newbies can use their proxied decks. Let them be part of it but in their own little corner.

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15 Dec 2011 18:51 #18575 by echiang

I understand though that it's possible to get cards if you work hard. Maybe there could be some form of "Little League Tournament" with a few tables during the big tournaments where newbies can use their proxied decks. Let them be part of it but in their own little corner.

If the tournaments are just for fun, you can always run tournaments that allow proxies (they just don't get counted for ratings or TWDA).

I know some people that are really keen on ratings and the TWDA, but there are also some people (myself included) who really don't care too much about either of them.

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@pckvtes

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15 Dec 2011 19:24 #18583 by johannes
One pretty obvious reasons is: no company in the world will pick up this game for printing again when everybody is used to happily color-printing himself all the cards he wants.

It is handled for the new set by making the cards legal as printed now and illegal once they are properly printed + it is a very small amount of cards, most of them not general purpose.

But if we allow large scale self-printing of Enkil Cog, Villein and such for tounaments, nobody would even bother with a new, properly published set that will include reprints for all of them.

I know it is hard for newcomers, but for tournaments you will have to borrow or consider buying up some collection that are popping up sometimes because people want to quit the game. I say the total amount of cards we have right now is enough for the number of players we have and if that number remains constant it is already a big success.
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