What make VtES hard to learn

The problem with moving IG to post strikes changes the way it works currently. It should be somewhere, and it should be before players declare strikes. It must sit inside a phase, and I think it is more logical to have it exist at the end of the Range step.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

There are actually cards that can only be played at the beginning of the first round of combat;

Never said otherwise, only that your examples were wrong.

they are actually attempting to use a window that exists at the beginning of the combat and at no other time. So it seems simpler to change their requirement to "Only playable at the beginning of a combat".

Adding phases does not make the game simpler. Besides you are changing the rules if you force a weighted walking stick to be played before a Concealed Weapon, and adding more useless timing to remember.

There are cards, such as Telepathic Tracking and Psyche, which must be played when the combat is ending. The combat ends after the round ends (because Psyche is not played at the same time as Taste of Vitae)

Psyche! IS played at the same time as Taste of Vitae. Pascal finally dealt with the weird "it's a combat card played out of combat" thing. Of course there is an end of combat, but it is not not a phase when you play anything, just a cleanup phase when all combat-long effects end, similar to the end of turn.

AaronC wrote:

1. Before Combat (no more before range or before round)

1) That name is already taken: before combat is not combat yet, it is still time to play action modifiers/reactions such as Obedience.
2) You cannot get rid of the beginning of round because some cards have an effect on the current round only and need to be played every round, the Typhonic Beast press for example.

7. End of Combat (no more end of round)

So you cannot Taste or Disarm if you have pressed? That doesn't work.

@Boris:
Taste of Vitae is played at the end of a round.
Psyche is played at the end of a combat.
These are not the same times in the combat. You Taste of Vitae before your Psyche. It's not played 'out of combat', it's basically the last card playable in a combat.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

The problem with moving IG to post strikes changes the way it works currently. It should be somewhere, and it should be before players declare strikes. It must sit inside a phase, and I think it is more logical to have it exist at the end of the Range step.

I may be more logical, but it doesn't change the problem of an added phase to combat. Do you not agree that that is the problem?

Additionally, if superior IG is played during the determine range step, you would not be able to play IG the following round because there would be no determine range step.

My proposition would require that IG be rewritten. Here are a couple of options for eliminating the "grapple phase":

As a strike modifier:

Grapple. Play when declaring a hand strike at close range.
Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round. If the opposing minion has already chosen a strike that is not a hand strike, that minion's controller may return any strike and strike modifier cards played this round to his or her hand and discard down to handsize. The opposing minion must declare a new strike, which must be a hand strike.
As above, with an optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is at close range; skip the determine range step for that round.

(For the purpose of balance, I changed it so that an acting minions can take back their already-played strike cards.)

As a pre-combat:

Grapple. Play at the beginning of combat.
If range is close during this combat, strikes that are not hand strikes may not be chosen (by either combatant).
As above, with an optional press the first round of combat.

Wow! That's pretty darn streamlined, isn't it? For the purpose of balance, I changed it so that range is not automatically set to close the second round of combat since that would also mean that hand strikes would also have to be chosen.

From a flavor perspective, why shouldn't the grapple be played at the beginning of combat? It is before strikes are declared, which is something you think is important.

@AaronC: No there would be a determine range step, but no maneuvers could be played because it is forced to be close.

Unless you 'rewrite' Immortal Grapple entirely, you will be forced to have to place it somewhere in the combat. And I would propose that no steps of combat can be skipped, but only made redundant.

S:CE would still require Strike Resolution (otherwise the S:CE could not work). That also means it is the End of the Round (because the combat is ending) and that the press-step is forced to be "Not continuing" because of the S:CE (this does give players the chance to cycle Taste of Vitae if they want, but I find that this 'change' to the rules would not be significant). Then the combat reaches the "End of Combat" step and this allows either player to play Psyche. Telepathic Tracking would be played at the End of Round window (at the same point as Taste of Vitae).


Regarding Immortal Grapple v2: Why should I be able to play a card to grab hold of someone if I am nowhere near them? I prefer the structure of Immortal Grapple only being playable IF the minions are at Close Range at the end of the determine range step. And it doesn't matter if a the range of a given round is forced to be either long or close, the step still exists but has its outcome pre-determined.

I would prefer to edit Selective Silence to read (deleting the Skip phrase):
Selective Silence
Type: Combat
Requires: Quietus
[qui] Only usable in the first round of combat. Maneuver.
[QUI] Only playable at the beginning of combat. This vampire burns 1 blood to set range for this round. Other effects cannot change the range.

This would be similarly changed on the other "set range" cards such as:
Cold Aura
High Ground
Neebi
Omael Kuman
Shadow Step
Sniper Rifle
Target Head

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

@Boris:
Taste of Vitae is played at the end of a round.
Psyche is played at the end of a combat.

See Pascal's post:

Pascal wrote:

(...)
Errata:
=======
(...)

Combat cards are played inside combat:

Psyche! and Coordinate Attacks have had their cardtexts changed to match the fact that they are combat cards, and should be played inside combat. These cards are now playable at the end of a round with no next round. They are treated as normal combat cards.

and the updated Psyche! that reflects this:

Name: Psyche!
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, FN:PA2, CE:U/PB, KMW:PAl2, Third:U, KoT:U/PB3/PT3]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
Artist: Jeff Menges; Eric Lofgre

and Taste of Vitae for comparison:

Name: Taste of Vitae
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, SW:PB, CE:U/PB2/PN, BH:PN2, KMW:PAn2, LoB:PO2, Third:PB2, LotN:PG2, KoT:U/PB3/PT3]
Cardtype: Combat
Only usable at the end of a round of combat. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.
This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount lost by the opposing vampire to damage during this round. A vampire may play only one Taste of Vitae each round.
Artist: Pete Venters; Brian LeBlanc