What make VtES hard to learn

Ankha wrote:

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

End of a round =/= End of the Combat.
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You have the leave the "End of Round" step (where you could play Taste of Vitae) and enter the "End Combat" step (where all sorts of other "End of a Combat" cards are played).

Maybe under your imaginary rules, but not under the current rules. End of round and end of combat effects happen during the same step, that's why for example you can play a Taste of Vitae after someone has played a Strike: Combat Ends.

No, Juggernaut is correct. End of round and end of combat are two different steps. It is not specified in the rulebook, but it is specified in the complete rules reference.

www.vekn.net/index.php/complete-rules-reference

Section 6, "How to Resolve a Combat" says that Round Ends is letter E and Combat Ends is letter F in sequence.

Taste of Vitae is played before superior Psyche! You can play both in the same round because a Combat Ends effect takes you to the Round Ends step first before you move on to the Combat Ends step. See Complete Rules Reference section VI.C.2.a.i.

I don't know why this point isn't made in the rulebook, but it isn't. When I pointed this part of the rules reference out to Pascal in a previous thread some time ago, he made some noise about changing it so that both happen in the same timing window. I believe he wanted to change it so that Taste of Vitae can be played after superior Psyche! However, no change has occurred.

I'm not sure that there is an elegant way to do that, though. The game has to be structured this way because there are cards that say "end of a round", thus making a distinction with "end of combat". "End of a round" and "end of combat" are not the same thing, at least from a design perspective. I understand that there is not a "flavor" reason for "end of round" and "end of combat" effects to be ordered. However, from a game design perspective, card text refers to them as distinct steps and so it is more effective design to keep them distinct, IMO.

Both Psyche and Taste of Vitae are played in step VI.E. [6.4.4] — Round Ends.

Yes, overall things may have been easier to pick up if combat was simpler — but like watering down the clans, combat without the complex interactions, additional stikes, preventions and rock, scissors, paper meta would just be less rich and VTES poorer for it.

AaronC wrote:

You can play both in the same round because a Combat Ends effect takes you to the Round Ends step first before you move on to the Combat Ends step. See Complete Rules Reference section VI.C.2.a.i.

AaronC wrote:

When I pointed this part of the rules reference out to Pascal in a previous thread some time ago, he made some noise about changing it so that both happen in the same timing window. I believe he wants to change it so that Taste of Vitae can be changed to be played after superior Psyche! However, no change has occurred. I'm not sure that there is an elegant way to do that, though.

That change happened nearly a year ago:
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/16769-rules-team-rulings-02-dec-11
All the relevant parts have already been quoted in this very thread.

Non-existant user wrote:

AaronC wrote:

When I pointed this part of the rules reference out to Pascal in a previous thread some time ago, he made some noise about changing it so that both happen in the same timing window. I believe he wants to change it so that Taste of Vitae can be changed to be played after superior Psyche! However, no change has occurred. I'm not sure that there is an elegant way to do that, though.

That change happened nearly a year ago:
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/16769-rules-team-rulings-02-dec-11
All the relevant parts have already been quoted in this very thread.

Wow, you're right. I had just assumed that he had rewritten the errata on those cards so that they took place in the "Combat Ends" step, in other words, as they were originally printed.

There are still some effects that take place during the "Combat Ends" step such as the damage from Yawp Court or the burning of the weapon from Horrid Reality. Until those kinds of cards get rewritten, there is still a discrete "Combat Ends" step and a discrete "Round Ends" step.

"Only usable at the end of a round ... and combat is about to end" - Wow. I'm really reading it for the first time. It's a convoluted way to get around having a discrete "Combat Ends" timing window. He's going to have to rewrite all other cards and effects that take place when combat ends so that they take place "at the end of a round when combat is about to end." "About to end" is not that precise, either. Meh.

The fact is that in the CRR there is an "End of Round" and "End of Combat" step and that based on the comparable card (Coordinate Attacks) they actually don't have identical wording. Coordinate Attacks has the same text as the old version of Psyche (at the end of combat). The easiest ruling (and without needing errata) would have been to make Coordinate Attacks and Psyche be played in combat "at the end".

Of course Coordinate Attacks was errated at the same time as Psyche! Ke has already cited the updated text in this very thread. If you intend to contribute anything meaningful to the discussion, can you please make the effort of checking your facts before writing, or at least read other people's posts before answering them?