What make VtES hard to learn

Haze wrote:

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a cool unique game than a copy of every other CCG

Exactly none of thoses fix are actually supported by me. But when people say "we must get new player",then thoses fix are more or less mandatory. You will not easily find people ready to learn rules that complex, unintuitive and against common CCG conventions.

The goal here is to show that making the rule simple and easy to explain is actually a gigantic amount of work that will have very deep and unpleasant effect on the game.

ICL wrote:

4. Combat is far more involved than the rulebook suggests, even the basic rules are not straightforward. For instance, combat ends, dodge, first strike, normal strike, during strike resolution (e.g. Carrion Crows) all constantly trip up players. I know players who have played for 5+ years who don't remember that dodge protects you from combat ends. The prerange timing is poorly defined. When the Bloodform/Weather Control deck came out, I couldn't understand at all why the timing was what it was. Weather Control, by itself, when you could play multiples made no sense where you could WC bomb anyone to oblivion with a 1 cap. If certain cards didn't exist, combat would be much easier, namely Immortal Grapple and Rotschreck, though combat ends just gets that much dumber. Too many other examples to name.

Combat is poorly described in the rules because most of the important combat cads are played between identifed phases: Torn Signpost before range, Grapple before strikes, Taste after press. Identify the beginning of round and end of round phases as such in the rules and on cards would not solve everyting, but it would already make the rules much clearer.

After countless debates about things that seem to have only existed in the mind of LSJ (and never been clearly spelled out in the Google Group, let alone actually in the rules or CRR!)... I sat down and tried to rebuild the section on the rules of combat.

juggernaut1981.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/how-would-you-change-vtes-part-3-combat.html

There are 3 phases in the Rules. 6 Phases in the CRR and when I tried to boil it down using the rulings I know and the way the cards are played, I got to 9 phases.

Beginning of combat and end of combat are redundant: the beginning of the combat is the beginning of the first round and the end of the combat is the end of the round if there is no press. Besides your examples are wrong: nothing prevents both Mariel and the arboretums from ending combat after the first round. OTOH, Weather Control can only be played on the first round.

Agree with most of ICL's points, and here's what I observed in my myriad attempts to teach my friends this game. Some of my points are also heavily tied to how enjoyable is the game, since if they aren't having fun, they're not going to play the game again.

1) Too much card text
Disarm, Taste of Vitae, On the Qui Vive. Most times, there's 1 line that says what it does, and 5 lines of restrictions. Players get overwhelmed trying to understand the use of the cards while in the already convoluted VTES system.

2) Cards with very narrow uses
I love cards like Iron Glare, Perfect Paragon, Forced March. While typically weaker than their focused counterparts, flexibility makes them a lot easier to play. You want new players to DO things and play cards. Mind you, these cards are still straightforward in explaining what they do.

3) Combat combat combat
This is beating a dead horse, but it needs to be repeated. My players often complain that it's a game all to itself. Why must I hold on to a Disengage and No Trace? Oh to cancel Immortal Grapple which prevents my S:CE which avoids his strikes. Why can't I additional strike my agg. damage on a minion already headed to torpor to burn him? I have to Press before I Taste, and I can't Taste against allies? Combat feel less like a flurry of supernatural combat and more like chess with obscure and obscured pieces.

4) Early game is too unstable and less than optimal play can get you shafted
And even so, optimal play can still result in you bled out by a stealth bleeder by turn 6. Poolgain is a serious undertaking and oftentimes you'll have to discard furiously to get the Villein that buys you a couple turns.

5) Overly Aggressive and overly Defensive decks have to be considered
There's hardly any breathing room to play your game and develop your controlled region if a Tzimisce wall deck is your prey or a Malk'94 is your predator. Sure, them whaling all-out on you would probably not win them the game,but doesn't matter. You didn't have fun and have hardly a better clue on dealing with them.

6) VTES is unforgiving in cardplay and procedures
There's a whole litany of procedures to do anything remotely interesting like voting and combat. And you need to have the right cards in hand to get from one step to the next. Oh want to damage your prey with KRC? First have enough stealth to bypass blockers. Next ask around for votes, better have transient votes to fight off transient votes like Wrong and Cross-wise, then actually set the terms. Finally Voter Cap to gain blood/pool 'cause titled vampires don't come cheap. And its too easy to stop this at each step of the way. Get enough intercept, transient votes and finally good ole Delaying Tactics. Not to mention DI.

7) Unintuitive game state understanding
When players make choices about what to do, they need to know what their minions and others' minions can do. There are so many disciplines and traits to track in what they can do; and most of it is implicit knowledge. Vets will know that AUS and SPI can allow unrestricted blocking, that Rachel Brandywine with Madness Network is bad news, that Ventrue Lawfirms suck at stealth but rock at multi-acting. But new players don't. They look at the developed table and struggle to get information from it, resulting in unsuccessful activities that leave them frustrated. You want them to DO things and do flashy things, so that they can get excited about playing.

ShadowCat wrote:

1) Too much card text
Disarm, Taste of Vitae, On the Qui Vive. Most times, there's 1 line that says what it does, and 5 lines of restrictions. Players get overwhelmed trying to understand the use of the cards while in the already convoluted VTES system.

That sounds like a templating problem: better separate the effect from the restrictions and put more emphasize on the former.

2) Cards with very narrow uses
I love cards like Iron Glare, Perfect Paragon, Forced March. While typically weaker than their focused counterparts, flexibility makes them a lot easier to play. You want new players to DO things and play cards. Mind you, these cards are still straightforward in explaining what they do.

What is the problem exactly? No one forces you to play cards you don't like.

4) Early game is too unstable and less than optimal play can get you shafted
And even so, optimal play can still result in you bled out by a stealth bleeder by turn 6. Poolgain is a serious undertaking and oftentimes you'll have to discard furiously to get the Villein that buys you a couple turns.

5) Overly Aggressive and overly Defensive decks have to be considered
There's hardly any breathing room to play your game and develop your controlled region if a Tzimisce wall deck is your prey or a Malk'94 is your predator. Sure, them whaling all-out on you would probably not win them the game,but doesn't matter. You didn't have fun and have hardly a better clue on dealing with them.

Those have little to do with the game itself and more with which decks you choose for a demo.

7) Unintuitive game state understanding
When players make choices about what to do, they need to know what their minions and others' minions can do. There are so many disciplines and traits to track in what they can do; and most of it is implicit knowledge. Vets will know that AUS and SPI can allow unrestricted blocking, that Rachel Brandywine with Madness Network is bad news, that Ventrue Lawfirms suck at stealth but rock at multi-acting. But new players don't. They look at the developed table and struggle to get information from it, resulting in unsuccessful activities that leave them frustrated. You want them to DO things and do flashy things, so that they can get excited about playing.

That is common to every CCG: knowing the cards and guessing what is in your opponent's deck is part of the game. At least in VTES, someone else at the table is likely to point important facts.