combat rebalancing

alek wrote:

Best thing we can do with first strike rules is to remove them. It's niche rules which bring only misunderstandings.

First strike would be useful if the most common similar effect was actually using it: S:CE. Just make S:CE First Strike by default and remove one more special rule from the game. As a side effect, First Strike would allow one's strike to resolve against an opposing S:CE.

Non-existant user wrote:

First Strike would allow one's strike to resolve against an opposing S:CE.

Sanity! — great idea.

I think Strike: Combat ends would work better as "skip to the press step" instead of combat actually ending. This makes presses more useful.

Psyche doesn't need to be banned or changed IMO. Right now it exists as a foil to S:CE and to make guns better. Immortal Grapple I am on the fence about. I don't think that it is necessary in order to make potence combat work once Strike: Combat Ends is nerfed or removed, which leaves hosing other people's combat and providing a press. I would rather see people playing other potence cards (i.e. Mighty Grapple, Slam, Undead Strength) than IG because it restricts interactions where the other cards promote it (press to end, maneuver away, dodge or prevent).

Non-existant user wrote:

1) and are pure combat disciplines. Removing their signature cards is not "rebalancing", it is nerfing them into oblivion.
2) Who cares? Do you really think you can have more dodges than I have Aid from Bats?
3) That completely wallpapers S:CE. If there was any point in planning further ahead than the first strike, then we would actually see some second round in play.

Your 1 and 3 contradict each other - if SCE will be nerfed (it's the goal, obviously - now they are too good) then "signature cards" will not be them anymore - they both are just glorified presses.

2) obviously press will "beat" dodge, that's the point.

elotar wrote:

Non-existant user wrote:

1) and are pure combat disciplines. Removing their signature cards is not "rebalancing", it is nerfing them into oblivion.
...
3) That completely wallpapers S:CE. If there was any point in planning further ahead than the first strike, then we would actually see some second round in play.

Your 1 and 3 contradict each other - if SCE will be nerfed (it's the goal, obviously - now they are too good) then "signature cards" will not be them anymore - they both are just glorified presses.

Sort of. It makes additional strikes a lot worse, for things like cel/pot and Cel guns. Additional strikes are already quite a lot weaker than they were originally, due to extra damage having crept into many strategies and Target Head/Vitals being rather tasty. It does seem like another nerf to Celerity.

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Other questions:

I was about to add cel/qui to the list (for things like Assamites blurring and finishing with a Taste of Death) and remembered Sanguine Entrapment. Removed too? What about Coordinate Attacks?

If the issue is that ending combat so easily is a problem, what about Rotschreck?

If an issue is that things in unusual timing phases are bad, then why is it not a better answer to just add those phases as standard timing phases? Or should we also go through and remove a lot of other cards? Taste of Vitae goes off in the same timing phase as Psyche! (end of round), so does that need to go too?

Thinking more about Elotar's S:CE suggestion...

S:CE as it is now, can practically cancel 2-5 cards, in many respects a lot better than DI or a Sudden Reversal. This is why people play combat strategies with permanent cards like guns or 2 card combo's, otherwise you'll run out of cards before you even have a chance to oust.

Lets say S:CE is just a round terminator leaving an option to press for another round as Elotar suggested and banning IG/Psyche.
Boom, cancelled 2-5 cards in round 1 and boom, cancelled 2-5 cards in round 2.
You'll run your predator/prey out of combat cards in no time...

S:CE becomes more powerful, combat becomes a lot weaker.

If any card(s) should be banned to make combat more interesting, it should actually be S:CE cards. Banning all S:CE cards would have a profound effect:

1.) Dodge will see a LOT more play.
2.) Additional Strikes will see a LOT more play.
3.) The Arboretum and Muriel will see a LOT more play.
4.) Damage prevention will see a LOT more play.

I am NOT advocating a ban on S:CE, I am just painting a picture...

The current combat mechanics are fine as is (a lot of cards wallpapered thanks to S:CE, but fine). Just add a little ousting power to combat oriented decks/clans/disciplines whatever.

People like to play combat, people WILL play combat and you will keep seeing well crafted and fun combat decks that can't oust due to lack of space in their decks for ousting cards. It shouldn't matter if you die in 4-5 turns due to stealth bleed, votes or pure combat, all three options should be viable.

Trying to rig combat mechanics in a manner that it becomes even less viable will have the opposite effect, MORE oustless combat because people WANT to play fun combat decks!