What is missing from VtES?

TwoRazorReign wrote:

GreyB wrote:

I've actually had a few moments where my opponent didn't pack any S:CE and I punched his vampire for 1 because my hand was jammed with S:CE cancel cards...

Is the problem that S:CE is flawed game design or is the problem that you built a shitty deck? I'm thinking the latter...

Ofcourse I built a shitty deck, it needed S:CE counters!

Lönkka wrote:

Problem is that if you have a deck containing a golden bullet and the deck it was designed to work against the original deck will most likely win. The golden bullet deck ain't gonna pack so many copies of the said gold bullet that it'll certainly do its own thing well.

If I understand you correctly...and its a stretch...packing counter strategy cards is meant to protect your deck against its weakness. Silver bullets could hurt you if you pack enough to hurt the decks ability to deliver its threat. Packing a measure of golden bullets hurts much less because their opportunity cost is so low.

That's the difference between golden and silver bullets, if you know the term.

Problem with SCE is that they make ~80% of combat cards irrelevant/useless, and when we add most popular counters against them, percentage of useless combat cards rises to, like 95%.

It will be interesting to hear from somebody in the know, but I always got a feeling, that SCE in their present form (resolving "before" all other strikes) as well as IG and Psyche was last-minute additions to the Jyhad basic set - all of them works by breaking basic combat structure.

I'm not sure that it all was thoroughly playtested.

My conservative solution would be to allow first strike damage to land before SCE.

My radical solution will be to make all initial strike damage land before combat ends + banning of IG, Psyche, Deep Song (and maybe some other cards) + remove of diablerie action (it will be still possible to do it by cards or by blocking leave torpor action).

I think Ambush is a good example of a right implementation of combat in VtES - target has to reveal himself (usually do some action to tap) so it can be rushed.

What makes combat cards irrelevant is the fact that combat is irrelevant.
Too. Far. From. Win. Condition(ing).

If you destroy in a better way the decks that actually play ViTESS (meaning the ones that actually oust their prey), you're just creating craters for no good reason other than making combat more effective in creating nothing.

elotar wrote:

Problem with SCE is that they make ~80% of combat cards irrelevant/useless, and when we add most popular counters against them, percentage of useless combat cards rises to, like 95%.

S:CE makes ~80% of combat cards useless...when you draw into S:CE. That's a very important part of the equation you are leaving out. If you put S:CE cards in a deck, there's no guarantee you'll draw them when faced with the ~80% of combat cards they make useless.

It will be interesting to hear from somebody in the know, but I always got a feeling, that SCE in their present form (resolving "before" all other strikes) as well as IG and Psyche was last-minute additions to the Jyhad basic set - all of them works by breaking basic combat structure.

Why wouldn't a Gangrel with protean be able to meld into the earth before any punches are thrown? Why wouldn't a Brujah with potence be able to grapple a Toreador with presence before using majesty to flee the fight?

I'm not sure that it all was thoroughly playtested.

Why? Because S:CE trumps most forms of combat? Because Immortal Grapple and Psyche! trump S:CE? Because presses to continue trump presses to end? Because maneuvers to close trump maneuvers to long? Because Deflection trumps Conditioning? Because Delaying Tactics trumps Kine Resources Contested?

My conservative solution would be to allow first strike damage to land before SCE.

My radical solution will be to make all initial strike damage land before combat ends + banning of IG, Psyche, Deep Song (and maybe some other cards) + remove of diablerie action (it will be still possible to do it by cards or by blocking leave torpor action).

Maybe your solution is to not play a card game. Card games by nature are situational and random. It seems like VTES is too situational and random for you.

I think Ambush is a good example of a right implementation of combat in VtES - target has to reveal himself (usually do some action to tap) so it can be rushed.

And if you bum's rush a target who does not reveal himself, your options are limited (do not replace directive).

elotar wrote:

Problem with SCE is that they make ~80% of combat cards irrelevant/useless, and when we add most popular counters against them, percentage of useless combat cards rises to, like 95%.

I used to think that too.

Lets just say first, most combat cards are useless to begin with due to there being better options or the card being absolute rubish So using the 80% number ain't even relevant.

As for S:CE, well it actually makes combat more viable, hear me out, it's the only thing you have to counter most of the time. Take S:CE out of the equation, and now you need more cards to counter dodges, maneuvers and presses. So yeah, it would make some combat cards more relevant, but wrecks your combat strategy even more.

So I would go as far as say that S:CE offers a false sense of security and makes people often not add maneuvers and presses as they rely entirely on S:CE.