Rules update suggestion: Diablerie and Disciplines

the whole problem of 'too many different kinds of counters on a card' goes away if you stop thinking about V:tes as a conventional CCG, and think of it as a Board Game that's played with cards. I feel the comparison is apt, because if you look at how the style of play lines up between v:tes and some of the more involved board games out there (Agricola, Twilight Imperium, Ikusa, &c), there are a lot of similarities.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

There's also a legacy of excessive amounts of cards on minions being a bad thing, leading to too much upkeep and accounting. See Imbued and Events. Probably best to not add more types of counters.

define 'excessvie.'

the old Legend of the Five Rings CCG used to put potentially several dozen cards into play by design and there's no issue there in terms of upkeep of accounting. I suspect that the recursion issues that crop up with imbued are the culprit of the notion that 'too many cards on a minion makes for too much upkeep.' I mean, gangrel retainer decks are a popular archetype, Right?

self wrote:

the whole problem of 'too many different kinds of counters on a card' goes away if you stop thinking about V:tes as a conventional CCG, and think of it as a Board Game that's played with cards. I feel the comparison is apt, because if you look at how the style of play lines up between v:tes and some of the more involved board games out there (Agricola, Twilight Imperium, Ikusa, &c), there are a lot of similarities.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

There's also a legacy of excessive amounts of cards on minions being a bad thing, leading to too much upkeep and accounting. See Imbued and Events. Probably best to not add more types of counters.

define 'excessvie.'

I tried looking up "excessvie" in the dictionary and couldn't find it.

the old Legend of the Five Rings CCG used to put potentially several dozen cards into play by design and there's no issue there in terms of upkeep of accounting.

That game no longer exists in the same format, so apparently there was an issue.

I suspect that the recursion issues that crop up with imbued are the culprit of the notion that 'too many cards on a minion makes for too much upkeep.'

There's that, and the fact that other players need to look at the 20-30 cards that the imbued player has out before playing their turn.

I mean, gangrel retainer decks are a popular archetype, Right?

Do you mean Gangrel decks with Raven Spy? Not sure what your point is. That there are popular decks that do things similar to imbued (put lots of permanents and cards on minions) and don't involve recursion and massive upkeep?

Bloodartist wrote:

elotar wrote:

OK, let's take Lorwyn, as an set I've even played once. ...

The first example I can think of offhand is commander 2013...

So, you are saying there was no such example in Lorwyn?

For discipline tokens in card form I see no problem in game, but it looks kind of bothering - any player should have with him several copies of such cards for each discipline for extremely rare situations when it will be usefull (or lose competitive edge in such situations).

Somebody mentioned contemporary boardgames, and it's a common problem as I see it - some games got so many components that management of them is making the whole game experience annoying.

It's not very big problem, but the gain of "better diablery" not looks so big either.

I suppose we could just make it a skill card from outside the game.......

elotar wrote:

So, you are saying there was no such example in Lorwyn?

I don't think so, I went through Lorwyn cards, assuming you meant the set and not the block.
There are far later examples though like I mentioned. Latest from last spring.