file Rules update suggestion: Diablerie and Disciplines

24 Oct 2017 13:42 #83995 by ReverendRevolver
To answer the question about eating Lucinde:

In lore she(and most elders in children of the night, her sourcebook) had WAAAAYYYYmore disciplines than is practical for s vtes card. So, no gain for the reasons posted above about abstractions of the source for the good of the game.

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24 Oct 2017 20:58 - 24 Oct 2017 21:04 #83998 by Bloodartist

Honestly, I've already come out as In Favor of cutting various 'theme' and 'lore' related things like Independent vampires not having titles and having something that is essentially the same but mechanically different, for no other reason than "They were cool in the books." I honestly don't get it, because I've never read any of the books and I don't have any attachment to the characters outside of V:tes.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, since independent vampires DO have titles in VTES. Take for example Arishat . Independent, 1 vote (titled).

Personally I don't much like the whole concept of trophyhunter deck type, which is to my knowledge pretty much the only kind of deck that would run discipline cards for the purpose of diablerizing opposing vampire and searching for it?

I feel the way disciplines during diablerie are handled currently is quite underused. If we added the possibility of searching a discipline card OUTside the game during succesful diablerie, I feel it would be much cooler and more rewarding to diablerize. Something that would be tempting to do regardless what kind of deck you were running.

EDIT: I just realized that would make IC decks even stronger so maybe restrict the search for discipline card only to the case where the target vampire is older? But not restrict the type of discipline.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 24 Oct 2017 21:04 by Bloodartist.

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24 Oct 2017 21:51 #84000 by self biased

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, since independent vampires DO have titles in VTES. Take for example Arishat . Independent, 1 vote (titled).


I have a few questions:

What is Arishat's actual Title, and where is it listed in the rulebook?

Why do Titles on Independent Vampires work in a (slightly) different way mechanically than any other sect's titles?

How does the game benefit in a meaningful way from this difference?

I mean, I know the answer to these questions. I even made a thread about it a few years ago, and the notion that streamlining the way titles work was met with some resistance because of concerns about Lore and Background.

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25 Oct 2017 07:30 - 25 Oct 2017 07:31 #84004 by Ankha

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, since independent vampires DO have titles in VTES. Take for example Arishat . Independent, 1 vote (titled).


I have a few questions:

What is Arishat's actual Title, and where is it listed in the rulebook?

She has her own title. "Some Independent vampires may start with votes, as listed on card text. Treat these vampires as if they had titles of their own."

Why do Titles on Independent Vampires work in a (slightly) different way mechanically than any other sect's titles?

Then you may as well ask yourself why do primogen and bishop title work in a (slightly) different way mechanically than city titles?
They work as any other title (= they provide votes, and the vampire is considered titled). They can't be contested (as the primogen, bishop, magaji, priscus title), and have no special name.

How does the game benefit in a meaningful way from this difference?

The only "unique" feature of Independent titles is that they are not named. They are easier to learn than a plethora of titles such as Calif, Vizier, Senechal or whatever.

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Last edit: 25 Oct 2017 07:31 by Ankha.

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25 Oct 2017 13:32 #84011 by self biased

Then you may as well ask yourself why do primogen and bishop title work in a (slightly) different way mechanically than city titles?

They work as any other title (= they provide votes, and the vampire is considered titled). They can't be contested (as the primogen, bishop, magaji, priscus title), and have no special name.


i guess I don't understand why the abstraction between background and v:tes rules fell the way it did, and why (though I suspect it's a legacy issue from ancient hearts that somewhere along the way someone decided it was a feature and not a bug). Independent titles working as they do now, “1 vote (titled)” printed on the card, as opposed to “Independent (whatever-generic-title-you-want-to-put-in-the-rulebook-that’s-worth-one-vote)” feels more complicated for me because it’s inconsistent with how Titles work for every other sect. The abstraction is in the mechanics and having slightly different mechanics for Independent titles, rather than the out of game justification of “we gave Independent Vampires generic titles for ease of gameplay and to keep things consistent mechanically.”

And honestly, unique titles could probably just stop being unique (with the exception of City titles, but even then). When was the last time anyone saw a contested Justicar or Inner Circle title in a game? The way the Grouping rule works, I don’t think I’ve ever seen those titles contested. I would wager that It’s even rare that City Titles get contested.


The only "unique" feature of Independent titles is that they are not named. They are easier to learn than a plethora of titles such as Calif, Vizier, Senechal or whatever.


Is that feature meaningful in terms of a gameplay device? Clearly it's meaningful to people who have read the books and have emotional attachment to these characters, because every time I bring up the fact that there's an inconsistency in the mechanics I figuratively get shouted at with background justifications. "he's not a Lord, he's a caliph/vizier/seneschal/or whatever."

i'm ot sure why people appear to get so defensive about it, but I'll continue to die on this particular hill when the argument comes up, and by that, I mean when I bring it up. :p

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