file Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

15 Mar 2018 09:15 #85777 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?


I hate vegetables because of climate change.


This is meant to be some kind of mockery, but I don't get it.


My appologies, I am growing tired of the 'because VTES has 20+ clan' argument, it's really irrelevant.

Back when there where only 9 clans, clan hosers where bad. They where fine when someone actually played the clan in a game, you know; abuse the meta, but my group liked to play several clans so you where always stuck with some useless anti clan cards. Anti clan cards are not worth it unless you build a deck around it (ie. Malkavian dementia/derange),

Specific cards against allies where always better than clan specific hosers, since there's always at least 1 person that has at least some allies in a game. Those ally hosers work against imbueds as well and it IS a massive weakness, so imbueds got some defence against those cards. Without that defense, imbueds would've been crippled from day one.

The problem with imbueds is that a lot of cards don't interact with allies in general, burn blood effects, taste of vitae, events, etc. A simple fix would be to make burn blood effects/taste of vitae interact with allies, but then recruited allies would become too fragile. A more complex fix is to elevate imbued to a seperate category, so you can burn their blood/life only because their imbueds. The easiest fix would of course be to ban imbueds and forget they existed.

As for minority (clan/sect) hosers, no more new cards should be designed unless they also have a secondary more generic function.

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength

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15 Mar 2018 09:16 #85778 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

What I am saying is: We shouldn't be thinking that "As long as a hoser card exists against this archetype, everything is fine and balanced".

A good thing I can't think of this mind set being present in VTES. I can't really recall the whole of the topic here, but was that ever stated?

...it's funny how I almost instantly felt the need to add 'genuinely asking', as if that would be warranted on these forums in particular. :D

Nah, but I don't think that total silver bullets have been a thing in VTES game design for quite some time. Most hosers have other uses as well (Trochomancy against Ashur Tablets and Imbued), and the silver bullets I mentioned above are few and far between, as well as older design. Uncoiling might be more recent.

Most stuff you can deal with in VTES as long as you build a roughly balanced deck. Silver bullets are just kinda there.

Scourge of Enochians and that wee location (still can't remember) against Tupdogs are a thing, sure, but Tumnimos swarms and Tupdogs are odd ones out. They're here, and we'll at the moment kinda have to live with them. Let's see the next step of game evolvement and if people will find better ways to deal with them. If there even is a need for it. Those, too, can be dealt with full table pressure.

Back to the topic at hand: this includes dealing with imbued as well. You don't have to prepare to deal with allies to be able to deal with imbued. Not exactly.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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15 Mar 2018 09:29 - 15 Mar 2018 09:34 #85781 by Bloodartist

A good thing I can't think of this mind set being present in VTES. I can't really recall the whole of the topic here, but was that ever stated?

...it's funny how I almost instantly felt the need to add 'genuinely asking', as if that would be warranted on these forums in particular. :D

Well "everything is fine and balanced" is definitely a mindset that is prevalent on these forums.. And one I don't necessarily agree with. Unrelated to Imbued though. I never claimed that Imbued are unbalanced, just that they are not fun and annoying to be in same table with.

Scourge of Enochians and that wee location (still can't remember) against Tupdogs are a thing, sure, but Tumnimos swarms and Tupdogs are odd ones out.


Gran Madre di dio, Italy? That at least always does SOMEthing, so its a good design for a hoser. The narrowness of hoser cards in VTES is an issue in my opinion. Take for example my fourth cycle. You can't even play it out of your hand to cycle unless someone is heavy into Gehennas.

The interaction of allies with the rest of the game leaves quite a lot to be desired in my opinion. But its what we are saddled with.
For example, flavorwise it makes no sense whatsoever that you cannot use seduction on an ally. If anything, allies should be more vulnerable to dominate/presence.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 15 Mar 2018 09:34 by Bloodartist.

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15 Mar 2018 10:17 - 15 Mar 2018 11:02 #85788 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

Well "everything is fine and balanced" is definitely a mindset that is prevalent on these forums.. And one I don't necessarily agree with. Unrelated to Imbued though. I never claimed that Imbued are unbalanced, just that they are not fun and annoying to be in same table with.

That's true. I'd rather say that overall VTES is balanced enough. The output claiming otherwise can be really... nnngh, at times, and we've a history of that output coming from players that don't really, seriously, play the game. So there's that. VTES isn't broken as some have a tendency to call it. Far from it.

No denying there'd be work to be done, but aside from personal opinions, at least I'm willing to let the design team work with that. For most part with rulings and bans, as well as all of the .pdf sets designed this far, they've done a better job than I would've. I trust they have an eye on what's actually broken an what isn't.

If anything, I'm feeling that many Combat End effects are a bit too easy to use, too cost efficient and stuff, stuff, and Villein should read "up to 5 blood". That's all, basically. We already missed the chance to revise Ashur's to read "minion cards" (rule out master spam), but that's that. These are, in a grand scale of things, just personal opinions (through a decade of tournament play), and not more refined than that.

On imbued I have nothing. Without gehenna they would be pretty much okay, or if Powers let you unlock only on the first one or something. Annoying, sure. But I checked some imbued not seen that often yesterday for fun, and thought that many of them would work great as vampire supplements, like Maman and both 6-cost imbued whose names I can't remember. Many of their cards are even underpowered as single use powers (which is fine), while some are no-brainier level (which makes them super resilient and not so fun to play against, so not fine), so...

As an idea and a design they're actually pretty interesting. Their (inner) balancing was slightly off, is all.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Last edit: 15 Mar 2018 11:02 by Kraus.

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17 Mar 2018 19:23 #85829 by Kushiel
Replied by Kushiel on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

As it stands, I can't imagine anyone adding Break The Code to their deck. :/


I stopped counting when I reached 50 decks in the TWDA that included it.

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17 Mar 2018 23:33 #85838 by Boris The Blade
Are those decks really using it as a hoser? It is also an enabler for cards that need a Gehenna event in play, e.g. The Rising.

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