file Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

12 Mar 2018 21:40 - 12 Mar 2018 21:41 #85697 by TwoRazorReign

Cross-table voting is indeed a way to get rid of Imbued, but
1/ it's also true for many non-Imbued decks (many decks without votes don't include Delaying Tactics)
2/ it's resources spent against someone who is not your prey, which is not an optimal thing at all.
If you're the predator, you'll have to go through 2+ intercept each time (Unmasking + Second Sight), if you're lucky enough not to have the vote action cancelled by Determine.


Right. But what if a deck that is built around vote lock, stealth, and Kine Resources Contested has an imbued deck as prey? The Imbued are dead. Major disadvantage for them. This is what I'm talking about, not anything cross-table.

Why you are suddenly discussing how to deal with imbued? Yea, they can be dealt with, it's even not wery hard - they are totally not tier 1 and in some mutchups can die horribly.


Because discussion of how to easily deal with "non-tier 1" Imbued basically proves that there is not a design issue with the Imbued.

Problem lies in completely other dimension.


Yeah, the problem is personal preference. Some other players find them boring. All of the "problems" with the imbued brought up in this thread are not problems for those who play Imbued.

Imbueds got most of their abilities on the table. All surprises there is Determine and Angel of Berlin. So you have to "solve a puzzle" with only real challenge here is to physically differentiate half a dozen identical cards (with different abilities) on each of identical dudes (with also completely different abilities) across the table. That sometimes this "puzzle" will be unsolvable for your deck because of imbued immunities is just an icing on the cake.

All this is manageable, just not fun, especially for those, who like VtES at the first place. Making addition to the game, which makes it less fun, is a bad design.


"Fun" is subjective. A lot of people who like VTES in the first place find Malk 94 manageable to deal with, but not fun. Same with most weenie decks. This does not point to a design problem with these decks, so why would Imbued not being fun be symptomatic of a design problem? Maybe you personally just don't find them fun. Which is totally reasonable, and it seems like you're not the only one to have this opinion.

The people who play Imbued are likely having a blast if they're winning. Have you tried playing them yourself?
Last edit: 12 Mar 2018 21:41 by TwoRazorReign.
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12 Mar 2018 22:55 #85700 by Boris The Blade

How to play against them is somehow connected with their design problems. Average vampir on the table got 1 strength and 1 bleed, most his abilities comes from hand of the player, so his opponent has to evaluate possibilities, analize their table position and mange risks accordingly.

Imbueds got most of their abilities on the table. All surprises there is Determine and Angel of Berlin.

The difference becomes less and less relevant as people build better decks, and have enough copies of their key cards to play them reliably whenever they need. By now I am convinced that the real reason Imbued have such a bad rep is not due to them, but to Gehenna events. Imbued on their own are fine to play with and to play against, if a bit predictable. Imbued Gehenna are a waste of the other 4 players' time.
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13 Mar 2018 08:18 - 13 Mar 2018 08:18 #85710 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?
Also it would be good to remember that you can easily include, say, one Inbued to most of the decks. As a supporting character.

A deck that features imbued doesn't have to be be pure Imbued deck...


IANLSJ, but that is the design vibe I've always gotten from them.

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Last edit: 13 Mar 2018 08:18 by Lönkka.

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13 Mar 2018 09:32 #85711 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

"Fun" is subjective. A lot of people who like VTES in the first place find Malk 94 manageable to deal with, but not fun. Same with most weenie decks. This does not point to a design problem with these decks...


No, it points to the design problem of these decks too. "Subjective fun" is the only real reason, why people play (or stop playing) games. Possibility to build unbalanced deck is one of the problems of VtES, but problems of imbueds are "one level" more serious.

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13 Mar 2018 11:23 - 13 Mar 2018 11:33 #85712 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Imbuided - Dead or Alive?

Possibility to build unbalanced deck is one of the problems of VtES, but problems of imbueds are "one level" more serious.

Wait... I genuinely do not understand this statement.

Do you mean that unbalanced decks that are super focused are problematic? Here balance suggests strategic balance: S&B without a combat module is a great example of unbalanced strategies, as well as rush combat without a reaction module.

Or do you mean that unbalanced decks that cross the line with power level compared to others are problematic? At the moment master spam decks powered by Ashur Tablets and Liquidation are a good example, as well as well built tupdog decks.

Or something else entirely?

Some would say that the possibility of building unbalanced decks is one of the strengths of VtES. When considering the latter, there will always be strategies and resources that are better than others. No game will achieve perfect balance. The short list of banned cards (relative to any other game, basically) is a testament of pretty good internal balance. The interaction of many players actually enable more powerful builds while retaining balance. When someone brings the 'best' deck, it's up to others to deal with it. Of course the most abusive builds have to be addressed by further design of cards or other means, if they dominate tournament wins by a vast margin.

As for the former, the possibility of building super focused, unbalanced decks can - once again - be seen as a strength of VtES. If it's a good strategy depends on plenty of things. Without balance in your build, you sacrifice elements of surprise and reactivity for consistency. It's really up to your playstyle how you want to approach the game, and none of them are strictly inferior. Balance is not shoehorned into people's playstyles, but it is a valid option.

As an example, a Cybele Aksinya Ashur Tablets deck can be extremely balanced with their strategy, but at the same time super unbalanced compared to almost anything !Nosferatu can do with all of their tricks.

I'm not sure which (if either) you mean here.

Also, how does this address imbued? They're not really dominating the power curve, as has been discussed, but they are actually super versatile, and as such, balanced - they are relatively good at action compression, intercept, stealth and combat, so their strengths spread out, even if they are completely lacking in some areas of play (diablerie for example). They can even interact with votes through Poison Pill and stuff like that.

Krausedit\\ Personally I find them infuriating, but that's mostly because of the gehenna spam, and that their tool up turns can be stupid efficient if their neighbours did not draw into their 2 intercept in time to disrupt the most crucial Powers. The unlock after EVERY Power is the problem here, I feel. It creates the illusion of them kinda cheating.

Krausedit\\ A final note on inbalance of power levels as a part of game design: in some cases it can be beneficial to create 'overpowered' effects, if they are spread out evenly. Duelyst is a great example of this. They have insanely powerful effects that have to be built up, and are available at earliest on turns 4 or 5 into the game. The over the top effects assure that games don't drag on, and are 'fast and furious'. This is part of their design philosophy.

The problem isn't with imbued, I think, but with gehennas, as others have noted. Imbued aren't a deterrent to the speed of games (which is already an issue in VtES), but gehenna are. Their effects mostly disrupt player actions, and often require time consuming effects to be remembered and resolved. Games of VtES need to be sped up. Powerful effects enable that.

Imbued are grindy in nature, but ultimately play Vampire at it's core.

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Last edit: 13 Mar 2018 11:33 by Kraus.

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13 Mar 2018 13:32 - 13 Mar 2018 13:33 #85713 by TwoRazorReign

"Fun" is subjective. A lot of people who like VTES in the first place find Malk 94 manageable to deal with, but not fun. Same with most weenie decks. This does not point to a design problem with these decks...


No, it points to the design problem of these decks too. "Subjective fun" is the only real reason, why people play (or stop playing) games. Possibility to build unbalanced deck is one of the problems of VtES, but problems of imbueds are "one level" more serious.


So what about those people who play Malk94, weenie decks, and imbued who have fun doing so? Are they too clueless to realize they're playing flawed decks and should stop, or do they just have a different definition of fun than you do? I believe it's the latter.

You're also contradicting yourself here. Earlier, you said in your experience that gentlman's agreements lead to everybody bringing boring toolbox decks. So balance was a problem for you in the previous post, and here you're saying unbalance is a problem. Which is it?
Last edit: 13 Mar 2018 13:33 by TwoRazorReign.

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