New set in 2012

VEKN don't want to autorize really good proxies

The new cards are -allegedly- not proxies.

it may be counter-productive and silly, but it's way easier to be silly than convincing businessman that the goal were really benign and not a threat to theirs products.

Yes, because - clearly - any hypthetical businesses would visit tournaments of at best 200 players people to check everyone's cards if they are really well-done fan-based cards or proxies and not pursue VTES because some people go out of their way to make their stuff look neat.

This is a *completely* idiotic argument.

A hypothetical new investor would see if and how much money he could make from producing and selling VTES cards with the given condition that the game has fan-created expansions. HOW these cards look on the table, someone running the company doesn't give shit about.

Izaak wrote:

Yes, because - clearly - any hypthetical businesses would visit tournaments of at best 200 players people to check everyone's cards if they are really well-done fan-based cards or proxies and not pursue VTES because some people go out of their way to make their stuff look neat.

This is a *completely* idiotic argument.

That's a really valid argument, because they *will* seek information, and are likely to found the usual practices, either from here, from big tournaments, or the internet at large. If everyone is authorized and encouraged to create card very similar to the real one, they won't try to understand why, they will just note that as an argument against.

This is a public forums. If someone who actually want to do money from VtES appear, he is very likely to begin here. So, it's above everything else the place for promoting not doing thing that may hurt business.

Ye see that's just entirely your opinion which is also entirely flawed.

The amount of money that can be made from producing VTES is going to be the same regardless of HOW we end up proxying the new cards. There are new cards, with quality art and original icons and stuff.

I'll still print my cards on VTES-card like paper, round corners and all. They will be indistinguishable from a sleeved official VTES card. I'll hand them out as promo's for new people that come to my tournaments.

If judges want to disqualify me for using "better" and less recognizanble proxies than someone else, then so be it. That just means you lost another competitive player (and I'll make a couple of thousand euro's on e-bay as a side-bonus).

Better quality prints would naturally be better.. there is no way to argue against that. Ideally we should have all cards reprinted with consistent quality, same backs and updated with errata, newer blood symbols etc.

But as long as there is still a chance that some company will pick up the game and start official prints again I think it is the right decision to do everything we can to make that more likely to happen. And legal stuff, especially related to copyright does not always have to make logical sense...

If the game truly "dies" the VEKN can always decide later to allow better quality prints, but if they think there is a good reason not to for now I'm prepared to trust them on that. It's after all a minor inconvenience for us as players against getting some new cards into the game.

Seems like for you it is "if I can't have my cake & eat it too it is screw you guys, I'm going home!". Shame really as losing such a quality player would certainly not benefit the game.

Then again, getting the organization sued for copyright infringement or somesuch would be even more hurtful.

The reasons for the PDF card printing restrictions have been given and I really don't think they'll be changed. No matter how much ruckus we make because of it. That is unless, CCP/WotC specifically give us express permission to have those around. Which I kinda think they won't.

Izaak wrote:

A card with a paper in front of it will be thicker than one without. Always. Since a card is already pretty thin, printing on standard 80 gram paper WILL make the marked, even if you try really hard not to.

Isn't this kinda moot though?
The sleeved cards will be sitting on a deck and just by looking at the deck you can't see if the top card(s) have additional print included inside or not.

Isn't this kinda moot though?
The sleeved cards will be sitting on a deck and just by looking at the deck you can't see if the top card(s) have additional print included inside or not.

You can, actually.

But since you can also do that with Jyhad/Third and whatever non-sleeved cards this will all go under the common denominator of "people won't cheat".

The reasons for the PDF card printing restrictions have been given and I really don't think they'll be changed

Of course they won't. Which is idiotic.

And reasons haven't actually been given. The only pseudo-official statement is that they VEKN wants to *discourage* the use of proper cards to prevent people selling them on e-bay as the real deal.

Also, this has nothing *whatsoever* do with CCP/WW and copyrights and all that legality shizzles. CCP *cannot ever* sue me for making something that looks like their stuff FOR MY PERSONAL USE. Yes, they can (if they bother) sue me when I start selling it on e-bay. Which I will not.

"if I can't have my cake & eat it too it is screw you guys, I'm going home!

You can read it like that.

I want a game with quality standards. I want a game with concise and sensible rules. I'm getting neither. Apparently everyone else is fine with a game that has shitty standards, is insanely easy to cheat in and has more counterintuitive rulings than any game ever made.

That's all fine and dandy, but that just means that the game I loved has taken a direction I don't think it should be going. And since the VEKN is being pretty thick-headed about these things under the false assumption that this somehow matters for this fantasy future publisher the only other option is to, so to speak, go home.

Which is, to be fair, becoming a more and more attractive option the more I read here.