check Work-In-Progress preview of the upcoming Anarch-themed set

14 Sep 2015 13:35 #73120 by Ashur

It does raise the question of whether Chameleon is a "problem card". It would be nice to simply have vampires who start off as Barons, much as have that for nearly every other title, but Chameleon may get in the way of that.

Maybe just not make so high cap barons? Chameleon targets "younger vampire".


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14 Sep 2015 15:07 #73122 by Kushiel

Yes, it might pose a problem. But as Ankha pointed out Vlad Tepes can also play chameleon on the 1st turn. So the issue might be with chameleon.


Vlad's got significantly better stealth options than Appolonius does, too.

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15 Sep 2015 08:03 #73130 by TapeTaChatte

Don't like "Anarchs Unleished" as a name for anarch set. To straitforvard.
Something like "Constant revolution" seems more interesting.

I think vampires with interesting discipline spreads > vampires with deck defying abilities. It's boring if one crypt card is more important, than 90 card in library.


I'm not sure what you mean by "It's boring if one crypt card is more important, than 90 card in library."

Could you give an one or more examples?


Una freak show -> deck based on one crypt card, you don't have it you lose
Tzimische toolbox -> any sets of vampires are fine, they can pretty much play all 90 cards of the library as you like

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15 Sep 2015 18:16 - 15 Sep 2015 18:19 #73137 by BenPeal

However, I gotta admit that I think these cards seem uninspired and I was a bit disappointed. I mean, there are basically a bunch of vanilla vamps whose only interesting quality is that they start out anarch. I could've thought of that. And half the dudes are just advanced versions of existing vamps with nothing very different about them other than being anarch.


There are a lot of thoughts rattling around in my head about this, so hopefully I can convey them coherently:

It starts with wanting to have vampires who start as Anarchs for all groups. In order to not skew the grouping populations, we decided to take advantage of the Advanced mechanic to make Anarch versions of existing vampires. There are a lot of vampires in VTES who are Anarchs in the canon, but LSJ decided to have them be Camarilla to represent an overall theme of Anarchs in hiding. This makes thematic sense for some, but not all of these vampires - many canon Anarchs are very much open about their Anarch-itude. So, when making Anarch versions of existing vampires, we decided (for the most part, but not in all cases) to go with those who are already Anarchs in the canon.

When using the existing canon-Anarchs in V:TES as a base, there's the tricky part that most of them already have their full "points" worth of disciplines. You can see that in what we've previewed in Sundown, Boss Callihan, and Marguerite Foccart. Adding Anarch (or a minor special) on top of a full complement of disciplines treads into the territory of possible power creep. It isn't always the case, such as with Black Hand vampires and the occasional special. Still, it's something to be mindful of. Adding a cool special, or even a minor special, on top of that definitely raises eyebrows. The Medic and the Advanced version of Marguerite Foccart might be considered power-creepy by that standard, and they're of particular interest for me when the playtest reports come in.

Another factor is that canon Anarchs tend to be of younger generations. We have nine other 10th-gen (5-cap) Brujah we've designed who didn't make the cut for the set. For 6-caps and below, disciplines are especially important. Dropping a discipline or two for the sake of a special, and especially not having a discipline at superior, really hurts a mid-cap vampire and the overall crypt depth for its group. This is especially true for Anarchs, given the desire to use Anarch 3-way cards.

That said, I do feel that Sundown and Danielle Diron are a little lackluster in their Round Two versions. In Sundown's case, changing up his merged special is likely the way to go. For Danielle Diron, we might drop one of the added disciplines and come up with a suitable Anarch-themed special.

Also, the wording on Memory Rift is very confusing, IMO. Is it supposed to be like Keystone Kine, as you mentioned in your introduction, because it doesn't read that way, and Keystone was clear and unambiguous, so why the new confusing wording? If you have obf and pre, does that mean you get +1 stealth and a s:ce if blocked? I guess so based on your intro, but the wording isn't clear to me.


Thanks for the feedback on this. It is supposed to be like Keystone Kine, and the intent is to make that template cleaner and take up less card text space. While others in this discussion have mentioned that they find it more clear, that doesn't change the fact that you didn't. What I'm particularly interested in is how people who haven't been told it's a Keystone-Kine-style card interpret how it works. It's one thing if we tell the players, "This is the new Keystone Kine template", and they carry on accordingly. It's another thing if someone who doesn't read these forums or simply hasn't been told in advance looks at the card and tries to interpret it.

The template currently says this:

"More than one discipline can be used to play this card."

What if it said this:

"More than one discipline can be used when playing this card."

I don't mean to be too harsh, as I still have much hope and excitement for the rest of the set and I thought the last set (The Unaligned) was fantastic, but I really hope the rest of the set has more inspiration and ingenuity than this preview portion does. I say this only because I think it needed to be said and a little constructive criticism never hurt anyone. You guys are awesome, but I see room for improvement in this set. Not like it matters what I think, but I felt compelled to give my two cents. That is all.


Your thoughts and input, as well as your candor, are very much welcome and appreciated. Many thanks! :)
Last edit: 15 Sep 2015 18:19 by BenPeal.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Juggernaut1981, D-dennis, Kushiel, Ashur, koko Loco, self biased, brettscho

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15 Sep 2015 20:40 #73140 by Pascal Bertrand
Quick note on Keystone Kine : its template ("cel and/or obf and/or nec: Bleed. If using ...") works fine for action and strike cards. It doesn't work at all for action modifiers, reaction, and regular combat cards (they would read "cel and/or obf and/or nec: [nothing]. If using ...")

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15 Sep 2015 21:08 #73141 by TwoRazorReign

Quick note on Keystone Kine : its template ("cel and/or obf and/or nec: Bleed. If using ...") works fine for action and strike cards. It doesn't work at all for action modifiers, reaction, and regular combat cards (they would read "cel and/or obf and/or nec: [nothing]. If using ...")


Another problem with that template is the excessive use of "and/or". Most style guides for American English discourage the use of "and/or" because it is not easy to read and unecessarily wordy. Replace "and/or" with "and" in the template and it would mean the same exact thing.

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