Dragons Breath vs. Majesty

Joscha wrote:

Sorry guys but what are you talking about? What difference is it to wait for the declaration of the opponent's strike and play then the ammocard compared to play it at one's own strike declaration? I mean what difference for a smooth flow of the game? Please enlighten me of an instance where it matters.

I think Joscha has a technical question, not a tactical question. Of course it is usually better for the acting player to let the the non-acting player declare their strike before the acting players plays DBR so the acting player has more information.

LSJ's and Pascal's ruling means that DBR must be played after both strikes are declared. My impression is that Joscha is questioning why DBR can't be played by an acting minion after he declares his strike but before the blocking minion declares his strike. Normally you can modify a strike at this time.

Apparently "Only usable before" means only after every other possible effect and declaration. I think it's news to most of us.

... as an aside, there are scenarios where you'd want to play DBR before your opponent plays a strike.

For example:

- A is preying on B and has just blocked B's last acting minion.
- All of B's other minions are tapped.
- A drops Aura Reading, sees that B has a handful of Staredowns but no wakes.
- Choose Strikes is reached. B plays Rapid Thought (drawing Staredown). Now A has to choose strikes first.
- A has:
--- DBR and Rotschrek in hand
--- a Saturday Night Special on the blocking minion
--- enough bleed showing to oust next turn.

At this point, B's main chance of survival is to cycle into a wake. If A can play DBR and Rotschreck before B plays a strike, B will cycle one less card this turn.

Aaron wrote:

LSJ's and Pascal's ruling means that DBR must be played after both strikes are declared. My impression is that Joscha is questioning why DBR can't be played by an acting minion after he declares his strike but before the blocking minion declares his strike. Normally you can modify a strike at this time.

You can, and that's what Aim cards do, per cardtext. Please note that my "ruling" is merely a quote of LSJ's, which I see no reason to change (it would be cleaner to update cardtext).
Here's another ruling by LSJ, confirming that ammos are played after strikes are chosen: [LSJ 20090709]

Aaron wrote:

Apparently "Only usable before" means only after every other possible effect and declaration. I think it's news to most of us.

I don't know how far LSJ's ruling extends. Clearly, Ammos and Immortal Grapple (and Blood of Acid, ..) are affected. If you find any "before" that looks weird, please let me know.

To be honest, I don't think it really affects Immortal Grapple, Blood of Acid, et al. The timing of those cards is explicit because they are played between set range and strike declaration.

It seems like there are pre-strike strike modifiers (IG) and post-strike strike modifiers (Ammo).

Both IG and ammo cards are played during strike declaration.

Perhaps you could just add two lines to VI.C.1., one indicating a timing window at the beginning (VI.C.1.a.) for strike modifiers that must be played before strikes are declared, and another timing window at the end (VI.C.1.e.) for strike modifiers only usable before the resolution of the strike.

Aaron wrote:

To be honest, I don't think it really affects Immortal Grapple, Blood of Acid, et al. The timing of those cards is explicit because they are played between set range and strike declaration.

Not between set range and strike declaration, but before strike declaration, when at close range. Compare this to the Outside the Ourglass + Pulled Fangs case [LSJ 20100630] .

Aaron wrote:

It seems like there are pre-strike strike modifiers (IG) and post-strike strike modifiers (Ammo).

Both IG and ammo cards are played during strike declaration.

Perhaps you could just add two lines to VI.C.1., one indicating a timing window at the beginning (VI.C.1.a.) for strike modifiers that must be played before strikes are declared, and another timing window at the end (VI.C.1.e.) for strike modifiers only usable before the resolution of the strike.

I'd be happier to have a ruling reading "'before' means 'immediately before'". Is there any case where "before" would mean something else? Same for "after", perhaps.

There are plenty of examples of cards that state "Only usable before range is chosen." So this dose suggest that they can be played before the Determine Range Step AND during the Determine Range step before both players stop playing Maneuvers.

It also means that players cannot "threaten" an opponent into a different strike, say S:D or S:CE IF combat cards with "before X" can only be played "immediately before the event X". e.g. If "Before Strike Resolution" means "At no point in the combat other than after Strike Declaration and before Strike Resolution". You can't scare an opponent into 'backing down' because they can't know that you were modifying the strike in that way because you couldn't play the card before Declaring your strike or as you declare your strike.

Baal's Bloody Talons could be played as early as Determine Range (as that point is still "before" the resolution of a weapon's strike.

Blood of Acid which is often played before strikes are declared, let alone before they are resolved and now can only be played after strikes are declared.

Blood to Water, which again is often played before declaring strikes, would now only be played after strikes are declared.

Death of My Conscience which is often played before setting range, would now only be played in the same window as Immortal Grapple.

Free Fight can be used, as it is currently written, DURING the determine range step.

Horrid Form (see Free Fight)

Sanguinary Wind as it stands now, can be played at any point in a combat up to the declaration of strikes.