Dragons Breath vs. Majesty

Pascal wrote:

I'd be happier to have a ruling reading "'before' means 'immediately before'". Is there any case where "before" would mean something else? Same for "after", perhaps.

I only found two combat cards with the text "immediately after": Anasthetic Touch and Autonomic Mastery. The word immediately disallows any other effect from happening or being played once the effect in question is resolved.

If you say that "before" means "immediately before", then playing a "before X" combat card means that no more cards or effects can be played after that card and before X.

For instance, if an acting minion played an ammo card "immediately before" strike resolution of his gun, then the opposing minion would not be able to play his own ammo card because it would contradict the "immediately" clause of the previous ammo card. The damage of both guns resolves at the same time, and the term "immediately" precludes any other event from occurring between playing the first ammo and the damage resolution of both combatants' guns.

There are multiple "before" effects that vampires might want to play before certain benchmarks in combat: range being set, declaration of strikes, resolution of strikes... Ammo, immortal grapple, Blood to Water are examples of "before" cards, multiple examples of which might be played in the same round of combat.

The rules reference already assigns "before range is determined" effects to the "Round begins" window of time. Assigning "before strikes are chosen" and "before strikes are resolved" cards to their own timing windows follows this precedent and allows multiple cards of those types to be played in the same round.

Ankha wrote:

Aaron wrote:

Pascal wrote:

I'd be happier to have a ruling reading "'before' means 'immediately before'". Is there any case where "before" would mean something else? Same for "after", perhaps.

If you say that "before" means "immediately before", then playing a "before X" combat card means that no more cards or effects can be played after that card and before X.

For instance, if an acting minion played an ammo card "immediately before" strike resolution of his gun, then the opposing minion would not be able to play his own ammo card because it would contradict the "immediately" clause of the previous ammo card. The damage of both guns resolves at the same time, and the term "immediately" precludes any other event from occurring between playing the first ammo and the damage resolution of both combatants' guns.

Come on, we're not robots. Cards that must be played "before X" must be played when X is going to happen (but just before). You and your opponent can of course play as many as you want before X (with usual priority).

Do we really need to express in a mathematical way what is "before" when everyone has understand it? Cannot "immediately" be understood loosely?

Create a chart if it pleases you (generally speaking), I think it's a bit a waste of time.

I don't agree. "Before" means any time before.
"I have been here before".
If you want to express that something has to happen immediatly before X, you would have to write it that way - "immedialty before".

Best errata Ammo cards to read just like Claws of the Dead. That would be the cleanest solution.

how does this affect the use of other cards like Blood to water? We usually played it on the 2nd round after determine range step but before strikes are chosen. So if its an ally he gets burned without a strike. Is there some change now to its timing?

Ankha wrote:

Come on, we're not robots. Cards that must be played "before X" must be played when X is going to happen (but just before). You and your opponent can of course play as many as you want before X (with usual priority).

Do we really need to express in a mathematical way what is "before" when everyone has understand it? Cannot "immediately" be understood loosely?

Create a chart if it pleases you (generally speaking), I think it's a bit a waste of time.

Amenophobis wrote:

I don't agree. "Before" means any time before.
"I have been here before".
If you want to express that something has to happen immediatly before X, you would have to write it that way - "immedialty before".

Best errata Ammo cards to read just like Claws of the Dead. That would be the cleanest solution.

I'm not advocating that "before" be interpreted as "immediately before". I don't agree with LSJ's statement that ammo cards must be played after both strikes are declared. In my opinion the "plain English" card text should be our guide as much as possible. However, this is VTES, and the prevailing philosophy is that the intention of the head designer takes precedence over what the language of the card is commonly understood to mean.

I have been suggesting ways to inocorporate the intention of the head designer in a way that is both practical and rigorous. We are talking about a specific window of timing to play cards with a specific card text. This window of time should be defined. The rules reference is an excellent, if not perfect, resource for establishing exactly when cards with similar timing text can be played.

And I understand that "before" does not mean "immediately before". I am pointing out some of the logical problems that arise when you use the term "immediately".

Which is where I would like to suggest one major change be made to the way cards are designed. Plain English should be the basis of designing the cards and the first way to interpret the cards.

Some of the rulings by LSJ that meet the most opposition, and even at times ridicule/attack, are the ones where an elaborate analogy or extensive text was needed to resolve an issue with a card.

Plain English design should be followed by rulings on Plain English and possibly even have the design and rulings separated so that intent of the designer should be assumed to be written on the card!