Dragons Breath vs. Majesty

blackday wrote:

how does this affect the use of other cards like Blood to water? We usually played it on the 2nd round after determine range step but before strikes are chosen. So if its an ally he gets burned without a strike. Is there some change now to its timing?

Blood to water can be played any time before strike resolution. You can play it between strike declarations: [LSJ 20090825] . No change here.

Pascal wrote:

I'd be happier to have a ruling reading "'before' means 'immediately before'". Is there any case where "before" would mean something else? Same for "after", perhaps.

Then Blood to Water would only be playable after Strike Declaration, instead of being playable at any point after the range is confirmed to be "Close".


So we have:

Option 1: "Before" always means "Immediately Before". This forces things such as Blood to Water to be played only after Strike Declaration (since that is the time immediately before Strike Resolution). This option is basically extending LSJs ruling on Ammo cards out to apply to any combat card listing "Before X".

Option 2: "Before" means "At any point before the condition listed". This allows Ammo cards to be playable at any time before strike resolution. As a consequence, DBR could be played before the "Determine Range" step and still have its effect in the Strike Resolution step. This option repeals LSJs ruling on Ammo cards.

Option 3: Create two different rulings on the way "Before" functions depending on the type of the card. This effectively means we have two readings of one keyword that require new players (and Judges) to remain fully appraised of the rulings on individual cards for over 70 combat cards.


Personally, I think it should at least NOT be Option 3. It would also seem the most intuitive, from a PLAIN ENGLISH reading to choose Option 2. Either Option 1 or Option 2 creates a consistent ruling for the word "Before" in its VTES context.

Option 4: Have "before" mean "at any point before" (which doesn't really need a ruling, I guess), and have the existing Ammo ruling stand (which doesn't create a new ruling)
This option is the one that changes nothing to the current state.

Option 5: reword Ammo cards.
Changes nothing but cardtext, which would make players reading up-to-date cardtexts happy.

The options are countless.


I'll add the point to the list for next review.

Option 4 creates multiple rulings, it means that there are different cards with the same word "before" which have different meaning. (This turns back into Option 3 and having one word mean different things on different cards).

Option 5 means that the printed cards are not the correct text at all anymore. It's an errata on 6 different cards with no expectation of reprints to release the new text into the wider cardpool.


I don't want to sound objectionable, but really we need to have one ruling about how the phrase "Before X" works that applies to all cards and not have a patchwork of rulings which add increased complexity to new players for no significant benefits. I cannot see ANY benefit in stopping Ammo cards from being played at any point before the resolution of a gun's strike. I'm not trying to crap on LSJs legacy, but I can't see why we should keep this ruling since it seems to only remove gameplay options** and increase complexity.



**In fact, restricting the play of Ammo cards reduces the potential play techniques of the card (Early cycling to find other wanted cards, threatening the opposing player with the effects of the ammo card or surprising your opponent by turning a simple strike into a much more deadly strike).

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Option 4 creates multiple rulings, it means that there are different cards with the same word "before" which have different meaning. (This turns back into Option 3 and having one word mean different things on different cards).

I don't want to sound objectionable, but really we need to have one ruling about how the phrase "Before X" works that applies to all cards and not have a patchwork of rulings which add increased complexity to new players for no significant benefits. I cannot see ANY benefit in stopping Ammo cards from being played at any point before the resolution of a gun's strike. I'm not trying to crap on LSJs legacy, but I can't see why we should keep this ruling since it seems to only remove gameplay options** and increase complexity.



**In fact, restricting the play of Ammo cards reduces the potential play techniques of the card (Early cycling to find other wanted cards, threatening the opposing player with the effects of the ammo card or surprising your opponent by turning a simple strike into a much more deadly strike).

Thing is: this ruling on Ammo cards seems to be new to some players (though it's been around for quite a while now). You want me to, basically, reverse it, which, in the end, is like creating a new ruling (because it changes something).
I'll take this in consideration too.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Option 2: "Before" means "At any point before the condition listed". This allows Ammo cards to be playable at any time before strike resolution. As a consequence, DBR could be played before the "Determine Range" step and still have its effect in the Strike Resolution step. This option repeals LSJs ruling on Ammo cards.

Given that ammo cards specify "before resolution of a gun's strike" and "This gun", I don't see how this change would make the ammo card playable before a gun strike has been declared.