Re: Faceless Night x Deflection

Sambomb wrote:

So if instead of a bleed I make a political action ( Methuselahs are still playing cards ) the referendum starts and the blocking vampire is not tapped and can play reactions in the political action?

Here's an example:

Vampire A calls a Kine Resources Contested.
As the action is announced, Vampire A plays Seduction, to take out a potential blocker.
Vampire A's controller asks for block attempts. +1 stealth so far.
Vampire B (untapped) attempts to block, using Second Tradition: Domain for +2 intercept.
Vampire A plays Faceless Night. +2 stealth.
Vampire A plays Cloak the Gathering. +3 stealth.
Vampire B's block is unsuccessful.
Everyone declines to block.
The action does not immediately move to resolution. The action is unblocked, but not yet resolving. No cost is paid for the action - for example, a political action would cost Lorrie Dunsirn one pool, but that cost is not paid yet, and similarly Black Annis.
Per the rulebook, because declining to block is treated as an effect, everyone gets an opportunity, starting with the acting Methuselah, to play cards and effects, following the normal sequencing rules. Various Methuselahs pass on this opportunity.
Vampire C plays Hide the Heart at [val], in order to make the action fail.
Vampire A uses the option on Hide the Heart to cancel that effect.
Everyone passes on playing further effects right now.
Up until this point, Vampire B is still untapped.
The action moves to resolution.
Vampire B is now tapped by Faceless Night's text, having failed to block.
Now conduct the referendum for the political action.
Vampire B cannot play reactions like Dread Gaze, unless Vampire B plays a wake of some sort, because they were tapped.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Huh?

You act. Someone blocks. You play faceless night at OBF.

Your prey, or whoever, has no further blocks.

Anyone else who can block can try, so predator or eagles sight or whatever.

Now, if blocks are declined, people deflect, reduce, DT, etc.

At any of these times, you can conditioning or whatever.

Now, a bleed action would at this point burn pool and RESOLVE. The FNd blocker taps.

Political action is sucessful. Go to referendom. Pass or fail or delay. Votes terms named, votes cast, then totaled. Passes or fails, voter cap, whatever. Now apply effects and the action resolves.

Euip/employ/recruit, action unblocked, success, put card where it goes and action resolves.

Combat, after combat ends without things such as form of mist or earthmeld happening, action resolves.

When the minion who is acting is no longer acting is the easiest way to tell an action has resolved. You are still acting until resolution, so an untapped assamite who you faceless night at SUP got by can still tap to foul blood yoir hunt action, etc, because they tap when the action resolves.

+1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
And what about this text on the card? When it applies?

James your answer contradict the reverend answer.
Who is right?

Sambomb wrote:

+1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).
And what about this text on the card? When it applies?

It applies before resolving the action. Like it says on the card. The problem is that you keep completely upending the rules by doing things like having the action resolve and the action paid for before anyone plays bounce, which is completely the opposite of reality.

In the case of a successful action (leaving bounce out of the equation momentarily), this is:

- after blocks are declined (the action does not move to resolution at this point)
- now everyone gets the opportunity to play effects such as, but not limited to, Conditioning, Faerie Wards, Telepathic Counter, or whatever else, that they might choose to play knowing the action is successful
- everyone eventually passes on their right to play more such effects
- the action moves on to resolution
- tap now, per the text on Faceless Night
- resolve the action, such as burning pool for a bleed, conducting the referendum of a political action, entering combat from a Bum's Rush etc.


In the case of a blocked action, this is:

- after the block is succesful
- now everyone gets the opportunity to play effects, knowing that the block is successful, which might involve playing a few cards uselessly to cycle their hand, or might involve
- everyone eventually passes on their right to play more such effects
- now the action moves to resolution
- tap now, per text on Faceless Night
- resolve the action, by conducting the block combat



In the case of an apparently successful bleed action that gets bounced:

- the action is apparently successful, because the bleeder has more stealth than the blocker has intercept (or there is no blocker)
- blocks are declined (the action does not move to resolution at this point)
- the reacting Methuselah plays Deflection, selecting another Methuselah
- with the change of target, the blocking window re-opens. The new target can choose to block, selecting a blocker, indulging in a stealth/intercept fight with the acting minion etc. This can then go one of three ways:
1) the action is successful, so it works like a successful action (above)
2) the action is blocked, so it works like a block action (above)
3) blocks are declined and the action is bounced again, so follow this section again, re-opening the blocking window


Note that re-opening the blocking window with a bounce allows a player to reverse a decision not to block. For example, if I'd asked the entire table to decline to block (because player C might have blocked cross-table with Anneke, for example) and it gets bounced to player C, player C now has the opportunity to block. As do other people, if they have Eagle Sight or whatever and want to stop C being bled for whatever resaon, but this primarily affects C.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Note that re-opening the blocking window with a bounce allows a player to reverse a decision not to block.

Nit: This doesn't really reverse the decision not to block. That decision was made and play has moved on. But since there is a new target of the bleed after a bounce effect occurs, all the blocking windows are re-opened and new decisions may be made since the state of the action is different.

Jeff wrote:

Nit: This doesn't really reverse the decision not to block. That decision was made and play has moved on. But since there is a new target of the bleed after a bounce effect occurs, all the blocking windows are re-opened and new decisions may be made since the state of the action is different.

What meaningful difference do you believe you are communicating?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

What meaningful difference do you believe you are communicating?

It's a new decision, not changing an old decision because there is a new set of blocking windows. They are separate and distinct choices to be made.