file Mata Hari and Hakim's Law: Leadership

27 Feb 2019 13:36 #93732 by DJHedgehog
LSJ's interpretations of his poor an inconsistent templating and card design are a detriment to the game. They have led to countless pages of rulings that don't align with the cards as written.

This is just one of a hundred reasons why this game is inaccessible to new players.

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27 Feb 2019 14:26 #93734 by jamesatzephyr

LSJ's interpretations of his poor an inconsistent templating and card design are a detriment to the game.


Playing cards "as a whatever" is, in fact, a WotC template - which LSJ then used consistently(*). See Talaq, the Immortal, Blood Brother Ambush, and Shadow Court Satyr. The "as a" rulings are consistent across different whatevers.


(*) With the exception that the capacity/gain life/lose life element for allies was moved to the rulebook, to avoid having to have huge amounts of text on every ally being treated "as a" vampire.

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27 Feb 2019 14:51 #93737 by LivesByProxy

Based on my understanding of the English language, her ability starts and stops when the card is played.


This was basically how I read things. Another reason I read it as such: timing windows (as I perceived / assumed them.)

1) Announce / play action card. Mata Hari's ability works during this window. No ambiguity here.
2) Window for block attempts and reaction cards.
3) If not blocked or canceled somehow, then the action would resolve - In my mind, the card-text effect being separate from it's requirements and occurring in a different timing window, I would not have thought Mata Hari's ability worked like LSJ / Ankha's ruling.

But then, all this does is remind me of the discussion on Black Cat's special ability a few months ago. She gets a gun for 1 cheaper, and then effects that check for the pool cost of the gun (like Illegal Search And Seizure) must recognize / remember / retroactively apply her discount, nevermind what the printed pool cost was. Some really weird rules decisions IMO.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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27 Feb 2019 15:04 #93738 by jamesatzephyr

3) If not blocked or canceled somehow, then the action would resolve - In my mind, the card-text effect being separate from it's requirements and occurring in a different timing window, I would not have thought Mata Hari's ability worked like LSJ / Ankha's ruling.


The initial rulings on how "as a whatever" works pre-date LSJ.

Cryptic Mission giving Talaq the Immortal an extra life (when the acting vampire gains 1 blood) was ruled in [TOM 19960628] - which is a clear example of "as a vampire" working at the point of resolution of an action.

It means they follow any instructions given to the "vampire" playing the
card as best they are able. In this case, it means that Talaq does lose
1 life when playing Rutor's Hand, Cryptic Mission will give him 1 life,
and so on.

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27 Feb 2019 15:06 - 27 Feb 2019 15:07 #93739 by jamesatzephyr

But then, all this does is remind me of the discussion on Black Cat's special ability a few months ago. She gets a gun for 1 cheaper, and then effects that check for the pool cost of the gun (like Illegal Search And Seizure) must recognize / remember / retroactively apply her discount, nevermind what the printed pool cost was. Some really weird rules decisions IMO.


A WotC rules team ruling. Cards on her cost less.

www.vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-a-to-f
Black Cat:

The lower pool cost is used for the "cost" of equipment on her. [RTR 19941109]


Note that this includes equipment she didn't equip but that has since been moved to her. (Equip from another minion, Heidelberg etc.)
Last edit: 27 Feb 2019 15:07 by jamesatzephyr.

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27 Feb 2019 15:23 #93740 by DJHedgehog

It means they follow any instructions given to the "vampire" playing the
card as best they are able. In this case, it means that Talaq does lose
1 life when playing Rutor's Hand, Cryptic Mission will give him 1 life,
and so on.


... Follow any instructions given to the "vampire". The instruction is to check the capacity of the Assasmites and to provide the controllers of the assamites with pool. How does that explanation fit the Hakim's law situation?

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