file Mata Hari and Hakim's Law: Leadership

27 Feb 2019 17:30 #93750 by jamesatzephyr

Furthermore, "as if" carries with it implicitly that that the thing acting as a vampire is not a vampire. This is a distinct connotational difference from saying it acts "as a vampire" which has no such complexity of meaning.


Both have the same meaning on that point. The thing is treated as a whatever - vampire, clan, sect - but does not become the real thing.

Thing acts like a vampire but is specifically restated to not be a vampire. Why are we making this clear?


Because the intention is that the ally doesn't become a vampire. (This is stated elsewhere in the same TOM ruling I cited earlier.) If Talaq the Immortal is in combat and plays Theft of Vitae, his opponent cannot send him to torpor with a Rowan Ring strike or any other vampire targeting effect. One card pretends he is a vampire, but the rest of the game still sees him as an ally. As a TOM ruling, that's pretty much as close to designer intent as we get.

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27 Feb 2019 17:36 #93751 by Mewcat
If you don't understand the import of word choice and connotation I guess we are done.

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27 Feb 2019 17:38 #93752 by DJHedgehog

I'm not sure how ignoring the many, many, many, many consistent rulings on the issue counts as logical.


Because it has nothing to do with the rulings and everything to do with looking at the card and understanding what it does. I shouldn't have to reference 50 pages of rulings stored in multiple locations made by different people to understand something that should be easy to say in English.

The words matter. The order of the words matter. The fact that a ruling exists only goes to prove the point that the card doesn't stand alone to say what it does.
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27 Feb 2019 17:40 #93754 by Ankha

Furthermore, "as if" carries with it implicitly that that the thing acting as a vampire is not a vampire. This is a distinct connotational difference from saying it acts "as a vampire" which has no such complexity of meaning. Thing acts as a vampire. Thing acts like a vampire but is specifically restated to not be a vampire. Why are we making this clear?

You are overthinking it.

Let's say I want to open my front door "as if" I didn't have the key. Now, I may or may not have the keys in my pocket. How does it have an influence on the way I open my front door? None. For instance, I take a stone, and break my window to get in.

Mata Hari can play a card as if she were an Assamite. Maybe she's an Assamite if she played a Clan Impersonation earlier. Or not. It doesn't matter. The card sees her as an Assamite.

Mata plays cards that an assamite can play, but is still clearly NOT an assimite.

From which point of view? From the point of view of the card that she plays as an Assamite, she is cleary an Assamite: the card behaves exactly as if an Assamite were playing it.

Of course, this applies to the resolution of the card: for cards that resolve immediately, such as Bloodstorm of Chorazin, it is easy to understand.

For action cards such as Haqim's Law: Leadership, since actions have a delayed resolution, this applies until the card resolves, that is the duration of the action (but only from that card's point of view).

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27 Feb 2019 17:54 #93755 by jamesatzephyr

I'm not sure how ignoring the many, many, many, many consistent rulings on the issue counts as logical.


Because it has nothing to do with the rulings and everything to do with looking at the card and understanding what it does. I shouldn't have to reference 50 pages of rulings stored in multiple locations made by different people to understand something that should be easy to say in English.


Except the interpretation you've most recently put forward - that it would follow the instructions given to the vampire, but not other effects - would be impossible to divine without a similar set of rulings.

This is V:TES. Some things in it are complicated. Some card interactions are complicated. The myriad interactions cannot all fit on card text, so rulings are a necessary evil. There is no reconstruction of V:TES that looks even remotely like the current game where this is not true.

As far as I can tell, your position is essentially an absolutist, fundamentalist position that no rulings should ever be necessary, because every card text interaction should only work in absolutely one way that everyone can see. This isn't possible.

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27 Feb 2019 18:17 #93756 by DJHedgehog

Except the interpretation you've most recently put forward - that it would follow the instructions given to the vampire, but not other effects - would be impossible to divine without a similar set of rulings.

This is V:TES. Some things in it are complicated. Some card interactions are complicated. The myriad interactions cannot all fit on card text, so rulings are a necessary evil. There is no reconstruction of V:TES that looks even remotely like the current game where this is not true.

As far as I can tell, your position is essentially an absolutist, fundamentalist position that no rulings should ever be necessary, because every card text interaction should only work in absolutely one way that everyone can see. This isn't possible.


That's just not true. She plays the card as if she met the requirements. If it stopped right there, rulings would be unnecessary.

Nothing about the card phrasing or text would say "for the purposes of the entire action she becomes an Assamite". She plays the card breaking the normal rules, but she never becomes something else or stops being what she is.

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