Who Needs More Love? !Brujah, !Gangrel or !Nosferatu?

Ashur wrote:

In 16 years, I have never seen anyone play Bloodbath or Blood Siege. Not even in casual games, not even in limited games. I think I know why they are underplayed

Actions to get votes can be pretty strong, votes to get votes on the other hand, it really depends on the situation.

Consider: I try to Crusade: Rome
1 stealth undirected action, one vote automatically for it. Title goes on the *acting vampire*.
Say someone has intercept or a vote card (or the edge, or a title), now you need stealth and/or vote push (unless someone will help you).

Now consider Bloodbath
1 stealth action requiring an archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent to give one vote to a 5+ capacity vampire. Can be blocked, but no issue of voting applies.

Ignoring the blood part, which is sort of interesting, I have thrown a copy of Bloodbath in my g2/3 Tzim toolbox deck because I wanted to have more permanent votes and the crypt already supported it. If I wanted to play a crusade card casually, I would usually have to be winning in votes already, so what's the point?

Ashur wrote:

In 16 years, I have never seen anyone play Bloodbath or Blood Siege. Not even in casual games, not even in limited games. I think I know why they are underplayed

They're really not that bad at all.

Bloodbath can essentially give you votes without needing to pass political actions. Really good if you have cheap Archbishops or Prisci (Fabrizia obviously, Shawnda, 7-caps). Works well with the !Toreador (with Foundation Exhibit, each guy with a Bloodbath has the same votes as a Prince/Archbishop) or the !Tremere (with Orlando Oriundus). If the Pander actually had bigger vampires, it would be really good with Legacy of Pander. For something a bit trickier, you could play Bloodbath on 5-caps before going Anarch (which then stack with Firebrands and provide a backup in case your Fee Stakes get voted out).

The greatest strength of Blood Siege is removing the Prince title (getting an Archbishop is just gravy). Not being able to play action mods makes it hard to use, but the !Ventrue can still use it best with Demonstration, along with Quentin or Bruce or Laszlo. Also not that bad with Orlando Oriundus (each blood is worth 2) or Terrifisto (people are unlikely to burn too much blood since they might take damage). Dia de los Muertos or Powerbase: Madrid also help. Or you can just use this as the vote after Cryptic Rider / Charming Lobby. Heh, Blood Siege decks might be one of the few situations where Distant Friend actually becomes a useful choice. Could also be hilarious if you follow up a failed Blood Siege (because someone burned lots of blood) with a Tribunal Judgment!

With all the concern about Prince/Justicar decks, I'm surprised people haven't tried building anti-P/J decks with the Ventrue Antitribu. Framing an Ancient Grudge eliminates Princes and Primogen (and Justicars if you pay the pool). Fear of Mekhet deals with IC's. Gustav Mallenhous neutralizes any Bishops or Archbishops around. Demonstration, Quentin, and Kindred Manipulation take care of any voters left. Slotting in a Blood Siege or two (for added Prince removal, on top of Framing) is just gravy. If you have the space, you could even include a copy of Rastacourere.

I voted Gangrel!
I agree that they have some really good vamps (enkidu, aksinya, hartmut) but that do not work well as a clan (country gangrel! are Ok, city gangrel! are weak)

In the other hand, Brujah! can fight, vote and bleed considering their weakness against bleed and heavy combat.
Nosferatu! have Animalism to control, good titled vampires and decent combat.
(City) Gangrel! do not have much to say in a vote, need lots of support to block, they only can fight but need a 4th discipline (potence) to fight effectivily.

brandonsantacruz wrote:

Ashur wrote:

In 16 years, I have never seen anyone play Bloodbath or Blood Siege. Not even in casual games, not even in limited games. I think I know why they are underplayed

Now consider Bloodbath
1 stealth action requiring an archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent to give one vote to a 5+ capacity vampire. Can be blocked, but no issue of voting applies.

Ignoring the blood part, which is sort of interesting, ....

In the L.A. Storyline tournament I used bloodbath for both the vote and the blood. It was very effective. However, I have tried to think of other ways to use bloodbath more and it never seems to make the cut.

Edit: back around to the topic. !Nos are more likely able to use this card (bloodbath). I voted for them but the argument for !gangrel seems overwhelming. As the arguments role in, it seems that they have fewer options.

echiang wrote:

They're really not that bad at all.

Bloodbath...and...
Blood Siege...and...
Framing an Ancient Grudge...

...all require another situation to be active on the table for the card to even be played.

Bloodbath you can control but it's expensive (costs an action), slow (need two vampires of sufficient capacity), and doesn't help you oust (it's a minor tool-up). The others you can't control at all. The latter two could be great in an environment where you expect Princes everywhere like that one past storyline, but not for a random casual or tournament game. And even if you do see P/J's at every table, there's a 40% chance they'll be your allies.