question-circle Emerald Legionnaire — First Black Chantry Nerf?

19 Oct 2018 05:44 #91279 by brandonsantacruz

Please describe the myriad ways in which Unmasking can be stopped when played. Then please describe the myriad ways in which Unmasking can be burned after being put into play.
...

This was the intended gist - its VERY hard to prevent the Unmasking from hitting the table,
...
For something with the potential for generating a powerful and persistent effect, the Unmasking ITSELF in too difficult to interact with.


You seem very focused on the card itself......


I didn't catch your answer to Darby's question, can you please clarify?

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

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19 Oct 2018 05:45 #91280 by Malachy

We had a talk about this thread last night in our local weekly game night, and got a number of laughs out of it. The consensus was that the saying unmasking is broken or a problem is "ridiculous".

There may be discussion about how good legionnaires are, or whether liquidation is healthy for the game, but saying that unmasking is the problem is silly.
(Currently I don't even run unmasking in my own legionnaire deck)


It became quite a trend to revisit old stuff and lobby to change them, party due to the BCP opportunities printing them anew, and obviously due to new cards. Although critical thinking is ok, mostly these complaints have no real ground, and deriving from the narrowness of local playgroups. As I've said, for me it's a bit early for an EL nerf, but I'm sure Unmasking is totally fine.

NC of Hungary

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19 Oct 2018 10:12 - 19 Oct 2018 10:13 #91283 by Bloodartist


I didn't catch your answer to Darby's question, can you please clarify?


I didn't answer it, because the question is irrelevant and misleading.

But:
Uncoiling, Fourth cycle, Shattering, Black hand ritual, Not to be, Emergency preparations, Power of all

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 19 Oct 2018 10:13 by Bloodartist.

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19 Oct 2018 11:41 #91286 by TwoRazorReign

It became quite a trend to revisit old stuff and lobby to change them, party due to the BCP opportunities printing them anew, and obviously due to new cards. Although critical thinking is ok, mostly these complaints have no real ground, and deriving from the narrowness of local playgroups. As I've said, for me it's a bit early for an EL nerf, but I'm sure Unmasking is totally fine.


I don't think it has anything to do with narrowness of playgroups. If that were the case, the discussion in this thread would have stayed on Emerald Legionnaire. The discussion some how landed on Liquidation, then The Unmasking.

In this thread, people argued that The Unmasking is a problem because there are few ways to counter it, and thus the +1 intercept it grants to allies is something to potentially always account for. Why is accounting for the +1 intercept bad? Because the subtext of the argument that people are making is that intercept, in general, is bad. They then go on to describe why it's bad using their personal preferences rather than objectivity; for example, one has to build decks that account for increased intercept among allies and can't really build the decks that they want to build.

I find it amusing that people are prompted to blame all their issues with the game on one or two cards, without realizing that what they are arguing is that the game is fundamentally flawed. In the case of The Unmasking, arguing that the intercept it grants to allies is basically the same as arguing that intercept and allies are fundamental problems with the game. I see no difference. If the Unmasking didn't exist, people would find other ways to involve allies and intercept. I also find it amusing that people will argue this way while at the same time continuing to play the game. I mean, if you don't like the concept of intercept and/or allies in VTES, banning/changing the Unmasking is really not going to fix anything for you. You would still have to deal with allies and intercept because these things are major parts of the game.

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19 Oct 2018 12:24 #91287 by Klaital
Unmasking is fine, if anyhting, just make more events that are impactful enough that people actually start playing the anti-event tech that exists.
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19 Oct 2018 13:18 #91291 by DJHedgehog


I didn't catch your answer to Darby's question, can you please clarify?


I didn't answer it, because the question is irrelevant and misleading.

But:
Uncoiling- Relatively big downside for a situational card, still probably best option.

Fourth cycle- Requires 2 Gehenna Cards. FBI, Narrow Minds, Scourge of the Ennocians are most commonly played and aren't gehenna cards. So not really an option.

Shattering- Anarch specific, dementation. If you happen to be doing these things maybe you slot this. Clearly not a real answer for general deckbuilding.

Black hand ritual- Again, if you're playing black hand you're probably slotting this. Not useful generally speaking.

Not to be- I personally don't like this card but I can see it being a useful counter if you're really struggling.

Emergency preparations- Requires a seraph, so more limiting than Ritual above.

Power of all- Anarch, requires 2 untapped anarchs, costs 2 blood. Narrow as hell and just a bad card.

It became quite a trend to revisit old stuff and lobby to change them, party due to the BCP opportunities printing them anew, and obviously due to new cards. Although critical thinking is ok, mostly these complaints have no real ground, and deriving from the narrowness of local playgroups. As I've said, for me it's a bit early for an EL nerf, but I'm sure Unmasking is totally fine.


I don't think it has anything to do with narrowness of playgroups. If that were the case, the discussion in this thread would have stayed on Emerald Legionnaire. The discussion some how landed on Liquidation, then The Unmasking.

In this thread, people argued that The Unmasking is a problem because there are few ways to counter it, and thus the +1 intercept it grants to allies is something to potentially always account for. Why is accounting for the +1 intercept bad? Because the subtext of the argument that people are making is that intercept, in general, is bad. They then go on to describe why it's bad using their personal preferences rather than objectivity; for example, one has to build decks that account for increased intercept among allies and can't really build the decks that they want to build.

I find it amusing that people are prompted to blame all their issues with the game on one or two cards, without realizing that what they are arguing is that the game is fundamentally flawed. In the case of The Unmasking, arguing that the intercept it grants to allies is basically the same as arguing that intercept and allies are fundamental problems with the game. I see no difference. If the Unmasking didn't exist, people would find other ways to involve allies and intercept. I also find it amusing that people will argue this way while at the same time continuing to play the game. I mean, if you don't like the concept of intercept and/or allies in VTES, banning/changing the Unmasking is really not going to fix anything for you. You would still have to deal with allies and intercept because these things are major parts of the game.


I would say that there are fundamental problems with the game. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy it, I'm just accepting the flaws to enjoy the positives. That being said, events in general aren't fun. Imbued aren't fun. Mulitple master phases aren't fun. Some of the cards are poorly costed, clearly imbalanced or just outright busted.

It's because we enjoy the game that we are able to determine it's flaws and then come here to discuss them. To dismiss what people say out of hand because you think an effect is "in the spirit of the game" shows no interest in discussion, just some superiority in that you love the game and we must hate it to pick it apart. We pick it apart because we want the game to be the best it can be.

Let's circle back around to unmasking. You say this is an effect you should anticipate, in that a lot of things can generate +1 intercept. I don't disagree with that concept. What you are missing, however, is that there is no other effect that would give all allies +1 intercept for no cost and forever. Beyond that, the best way to saturate a board is with allies. Now you're looking at being painfully outnumbered and you have to be at 2 stealth on every action you perform. That pushes some decks right out of the game, unable to act. The decks that can act need to consistently get to +2 stealth and that will eventually be not possible.

Vtes is a game about viewing the entirety. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Resource management (cards and beads) is what it's all about. Having a consistent effect that has zero opportunity cost is against the design of the game. Having limited interactivity with that effect is against the design of the game.
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