question-circle Emerald Legionnaire — First Black Chantry Nerf?

20 Oct 2018 22:27 #91331 by ReverendRevolver

Sometimes, you peek back into a conversation and just know it's become time to close your browser.

Just had a hilarious visual of you opening up this thread on a laptop then slamming said laptop shut in horror.

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21 Oct 2018 06:55 #91337 by Kraus

This isn't just a dumb game about vampires. It's our dumb game about vampires.

That is the best way to put it.

While arguments can become heated, and it is fine, and while disagreements are natural, and it is fine, it is NOT fine to ridicule or belittle other players' enthusiasm and dedication to a hobby or passion they have.

This forum is dedicated to VtES. This forum is THE place to feel strongly about that game about vampires.

This thread will now return to the topic of Emerald Legionnaire, if there is anything to add.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
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21 Oct 2018 12:31 #91341 by TwoRazorReign
Sure, I'll start bringing the topic back into focus. From my viewpoint, Emerald Legionnaire, while a powerful card that certainly has metagame implications, seems to be a nice and fun new addition to the game. I do not think it is overpowered and needs changing. I do think the new owners of the game did a good job with this card and I like to see something released that's affecting metagames.

For Liquidation and Unmasking, I do not think these cards add anything negative to the game, whether comboed Emerald Legionnaire or otherwise, and do not need changing or banning.

If anybody disagrees with any of this, that is awesome and hope it will lead to fun discussion. There is no need to get defensive however, as VTES is really just a game to some of us...
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22 Oct 2018 13:28 #91358 by DJHedgehog

I’ve laid out points for every single claim I’ve made.

You have merely repeated the same thing over and over: your fixation that unmasking is difficult to remove and thus bad. This along with the seemingly narrow point of view (you refuse to consider non-legionnaire ally decks position in meta in general) tells me that this is an issue of you not accepting different playstyles apart from what you currently play.

I'm talking about all ally decks, but this thread is about EL. Warghouls are another deck that benefit greatly from unmasking and ally support in general.

Here is what I've said that are clearly not repetitions.

1. It has no cost.

2. It has "global" implications (potentially benefiting other players in unintended ways.

3. The counter-play is limited and generally not good.

4. It provides an effect that is far beyond any intercept card printed.

My favorite test is the "would you still play it" test. If unmasking tapped to give an ally +1 intercept with no other changes, would you still play it? If you aren't saying yes you're simply looking to be contradictory.

KRCG gives +1 intercept once per round for 2 pool and a master phase action. How could you possibly compare these two cards and say that one isn't significantly more powerful than the other?

To address Tworazorreign: There is no other effect in the game that gives permanent intercept to a group of minions. Sure a lot of things make permanent intercept or transient intercept, but only for one minion. If you can't tell the difference I'm not sure how better I can explain this to you.

To whoever said Carlton's +2 intercept is "barely enough" is just wrong. Carlton is a glowing example of a card that is waaaaaaaay overtuned. Show me an ally that does half of what he does for 2 pool. He's a chump blocker who excels in the role and then has a dodge on top of it. Oh he can also strike 1r and has a whole other ability to burn vampires who diablarize.

This is what I see: people who I see on lackey playing 3-5+ games a week, people playing regularly with local groups, and people championing the game who all have a viewpoint that certain cards need work (Emerald legion, Liquidation, Unmasking). I see those people making arguments that aren't based on bad experiences and are willing to discuss options.

Then I see the other group of people who immediately tell those people they "just don't want to change with the times". This happens every time a discussion comes up about card balance. These people refuse to have a discussion and condescend anyone who would propose any changes to the game.

"Pentex needs work." "You just need to change with the meta and stop playing big vampires."
"Govern is too strong." "This has been around since 94 and you haven't learned to play around it?"
"Emerald Legionnaire is overtuned." "It's only been out for 6 months/My group doesn't have a problem with allies/you just don't like this new card."

When was the last time you guys played the game? Do you really think the people speaking out are all entitled brats? Do you honestly think that every card is well made and intentional?
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22 Oct 2018 13:43 #91361 by Klaital
What you don't seem to realize is that Unmasking is very limited. For one, it only gives intercept to allies, second, the intercept is only against vampires, third, it affects everyone, so if the dude next to you is also playing allies you might just screw yourself over by playing it, fourth, it can only be played once per game, so once you uncoil it, it's gone for good. And yes, Uncoiling is very good card that can take out Unmasking, as well as a number of other really strong events, if people don't put it in their decks that's their choice, not an excuse to say Unmasking has no counter play. Also Carlton isn't really the best one to point saying that Unmasking is too good, as he already has +1 int, difference between 1 and 2 int is WAY less than 0 and 1. Since usually, if 1 int isn't enough to catch something, 2 isn't going to do it either.
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22 Oct 2018 14:08 - 22 Oct 2018 14:09 #91364 by PetriWessman

...difference between 1 and 2 int is WAY less than 0 and 1. Since usually, if 1 int isn't enough to catch something, 2 isn't going to do it either.

Here I would slightly disagree. While yes, difference between +1 intercept and zero intercept is bigger than +1 vs +2, there are a *lot* of situations where that +2 is the critical factor. 2nd Tradition catches a lot of things that plain +1 intercept doesn't; there are lots of decks that can push actions to +2 stealth but have a very hard time reliably getting more.

Unmasking is a pretty big deal even for Carlton, imho.

As for my 2 cents: I think Unmasking is fine, for reasons many have iterated: it's only vs vampires, it can bite you on the ass (if your prey/pred also has allies), and Uncoiling kills it dead. It's powerful, yes, but it also enables a lot of cool ally decks which would otherwise be mostly unviable due to poor defense.

As for EL: I'm undecided, frankly. It's clearly at the high end of the power curve, but it could be the meta will adapt to it. Or not. I think it's a bit too early to tell yet, or to nerf it. But I'm open to the possibility that it might be overpowered enough to warrant a nerf at some point.
Last edit: 22 Oct 2018 14:09 by PetriWessman.
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