question-circle What would you like to see in a new expansion?

21 Dec 2011 15:06 #19007 by alek

Man, you are so condescendant

Sorry for that, it's not intended (maybe partially ;) to strenghten the message). Additionally, English is not my mother language, so it's hard to me to control in writings emotional package that's included in some wordings.

But when you have no more notions like rarityin a CCG, you may have for a moment the internet effect : everyone can play tupdog and indeed, there are many tupdogs decks on internet.

I feel that controlling the power of cards via rarity is the worst thing to do. It creates situations when only people with enough money can play competetively and all tournament worthy cards are very expensive. It's such a case in Mtg, where rares are just better than other cards.
One of the big advantages of vtes is that you can build very good decks with reasonable amounts of money and we should trying to stick to this.
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21 Dec 2011 16:09 - 21 Dec 2011 16:12 #19011 by echiang

What I think Isaak is saying is that as a clan using clan disciplines. Group 4+5 don't hold a candle to group 2+3. If the older vampires didn't exist the newer would be considered OK'ish but the reality is that gr 2+3 do exist.

Yes, and that also applies to Group 3 Ventrue (who have Obfuscate) and Group 3 Toreador (who have Fortitude), which Izaak has already admitted to.

If you want a more traditional deck focusing on clan disciplines you're better off with Group 2 Tzimisce (or Group 1 Ventrue or Toreador). If you want to try something different, or experiment with out-of-clans, you have other Groupings (4 for Tzimisce, 3 for Ventrue/Toreador).

Most gr 4+5 vamps atleast follow the formula [number of clan disciplines] == [capacity-1]. Which is a useful formula up to cap 7. I can count six vamps that obey that formula or better.

Whereas gr 2+3 has NINE vamps where two of them has the same discipline count as capacity!

As Ohlmann pointed out, you shouldn't really compare Group 2/3 to 4/5, since Group 5 has barely started, and you can actually combine Group 3/4 if you want. The better comparison is Group 2 vs Group 4.

In any case, with Group 4, you end up with 5 vampires (excluding Dr. Morrow).

Group 2 actually has 7 (excluding Piotr and Elizabeth from Group 3).

Though it might also be accurate to note how many vampires there are of capacity 7 or less.

Group 4 has 5 vampires out of 8
Group 2 has 7 vampires out of 9

Or looking at it another way, Group 4 has 3 vampires who *don't* meet that criteria, while Group 2 has 2 vampires who *don't* meet that criteria. Meaning the difference between Group 2 and Group 4 is just a single such vampire. (Obviously there are different ways to view and interpret that data, which I was just trying to illustrate, but here is one possible way that could downplay the differences).

Discipline count is of course not everything, we must also consider special abilities and gr 4+5 has some really good abilities like two vamps with +stealth and several vamps with OK-ish abilities like ability to burn locations and unblockable actions against weenies but nothing that offset the tremendous advantage that gr 2+3 has in disciplines.

Yeah, Group 4 has some really good specials. Some people will want to play with those, other people will want to play with more disciplines. I think it's great that players get a choice.

It just feels like gr 4+5 was designed with off-clan disciplines in mind. Obfuscate, Chimistry, Fortitude and possibly Protean and if you wanna build decks based with those then yeah, gr 4+5 might be your thing but as a clan with clan disciplines gr 4+5 is trash.

I agree. If you want a traditional Tzimisce deck focusing on the clan disciplines, play Group 2. If you want to try off-clan disciplines, Group 4 offers lots of exciting options. The point is Group 4 isn't completely useless. It has some strengths (out-of-clan disciplines, some great specials) and it has some weaknesses (less of a focus on clan disciplines). That's not a "complete waste" as some might suggest, it's just something different.

Heck, if everyone else in your playgroup prefers Group 2 Tzimisce, you could also choose Group 4 simply to avoid contestation issues.
Last edit: 21 Dec 2011 16:12 by echiang.

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