What would you like to see in a new expansion?

Ohlmann wrote:

Isn't black hand costing the same as bishop and Seraph ... a lot ?

Seraph tends to cost a point (same as Prince or Archbishop). You don't get any inherent votes, but you do have access to strong cards, especially multi-acting with Tattoo Signal and Seraph's Second, and Watchtowers. (You do have a few actions which could result in votes though).

Bishop nominally costs 0.5 points, but ends up being "free" on a lot of vampires (except when it balances out a stray 1.5, like from +1 bleed or strength). It's arguable whether Black Hand is treated as free, or 0.5, or something in between. But looking at the smaller vampires, it seems more likely to be considered "free." For example, you have 2-cap Piotr with Black Hand, and it probably makes more sense to think of him as getting Black Hand as a free bonus, as him getting 1.5 points. The smallest Bishop is a 5-cap, and we know that small Primogen pay extra for their titles (4-caps Reginald Moore and Thomas De Lutrius).

ani/aus would be amazing clan disciplines if they came with, say, obfuscate or presence. With vicissitude it's just a bit "meh". You don't really need ani's combat when you get vic and you don't need ani's intercept/untap when you get auspex. There are simply better combinations of disciplines available that do pretty much the same thing and have better crypts to boot.

In the end though, aus/ani/vic isn't really bad per se (at least not as bad as, say, Osebo's aus/pot/cel), but I really don't think vicissitude is enough of a reason to play a subpar crypt.

Just because a clan gets a really good crypt in a given Grouping, isn't a good justification that every future Grouping needs to reach that same bar.

The point of grouping was, initially, to prevent "dial-a-crypt". That makes sense AND makes way for specialized crypts. The problem here is that the Tzim G4 crypt isn't just slightly under par, it's just complete trash.

I don't expect every Toreador Crypt to be as good as G1, but at least G3 is playable in certain decks and Madame Guil has fortitude, which she shares with Jaroslev and thus there are options. It also is the +1 bleed crypt that synergizes so well with Annabelle Triabell's special, who incidentally also sports fortitude. G5 is certainly less good, but at least you get 3 guys with obtenebration in there, plus there is some dominate, opening up obvious Lasombra synergy.

Ventrue G5 is infinately better than G1 and G3 Ventrue for pure voting, but Group 3 has the Obfuscate crypt with Catherina, Arika, Vitel, Queen Anne and Lucinde while group 1 comes with cheaper PRE on Gideon and Violett as well as cheaper titles. There is a reason to play G1 Ventrue.

That is examples of well-designed crypts. It's different, but it's all useable under the right circumstances.

Now, for Tzims the idea is there: Laika, Guadado, Cyscek, Lady Zara Slatikov and even Sha-Ennu get some level of obfuscate. Unfortunately Guadado gets aus instead of ani, Laika trades VIC for inferior chimestry (that has zero synergy with anything in that grouping). Slatikov is actually a nice vampire if you intend to go fight, but then the problem arises that you can do that BETTER with group 2 and it sort of defeats the purpose of obfuscate. Cyscek has +1 stealth built-in, again defeating the purpose of obfuscate. Then they get a random 8-cap Cardinal with AUS ani vic, that gets DOM as an out-clan. Now, if he had aus ani VIC DOM he'd make some sort of sense (as little as it would be), but dominate serves zero purpose on him since he already has AUS anyway. Lack of DOM friends (and VIC for that matter) makes governing kinda suboptimal. Now if he actually had obfuscate or even VIC he could star in title-based vote-deck but as is, not so much.

It's just, well... trash.

Izaak wrote:

ani/aus would be amazing clan disciplines if they came with, say, obfuscate or presence. With vicissitude it's just a bit "meh". You don't really need ani's combat when you get vic and you don't need ani's intercept/untap when you get auspex. There are simply better combinations of disciplines available that do pretty much the same thing and have better crypts to boot.

Auspex has lots of transient intercept but little in the way of good permanent intercept (the closest thing is Anima Gathering and the equipment Bowl of Convergence, which may or may not be an "Auspex card"). Animalism solves that problem with permanent Raven Spies and Raptors, while Auspex transients keep you alive until you get set up. Plus Animalism combat for weenie Auspex is probably better than the gun variant (or you can combine guns with Carrion Crows). So I still think Animalism and Auspex have a lot to offer each other.

In regards to Vicissitude, Animalism's Carrion Crows is the best addition. Pack Alpha'ing out some retainers can be useful as well (maybe an Owl Companion). You can even use Pack Alpha for permanent + strength (which works well with Vicissitude agg hands). Other Animalism cards like Canine Horde, Drawing Out the Beast, Conquer the Beast (instead of Trap), Deep Song, and Terror Frenzy can find their way into Vicissitude combat decks.

Plus, Muricia's Call and/or Underbridge Stray are prime fodder for War Ghouls.

The point of grouping was, initially, to prevent "dial-a-crypt". That makes sense AND makes way for specialized crypts. The problem here is that the Tzim G4 crypt isn't just slightly under par, it's just complete trash.

....

That is examples of well-designed crypts. It's different, but it's all useable under the right circumstances.

This is where we disagree. You see Group 4 Tzimisce as "complete trash." I see them as "different, but usable under the right circumstances," like the prior cases of out-of-clans you cited for Toreador and Ventrue.

Now, for Tzims the idea is there: Laika, Guadado, Cyscek, Lady Zara Slatikov and even Sha-Ennu get some level of obfuscate. Unfortunately Guadado gets aus instead of ani, Laika trades VIC for inferior chimestry (that has zero synergy with anything in that grouping).

So zero synergy with Sha-Ennu's ? Or all the Ravnos with Auspex in Group 4/5, and the pair of library cards? Using support like Gwen, Johann, and Anjalika, I think you could make a reasonable deck along with Laika and Sha-Ennu.

Slatikov is actually a nice vampire if you intend to go fight, but then the problem arises that you can do that BETTER with group 2 and it sort of defeats the purpose of obfuscate. Cyscek has +1 stealth built-in, again defeating the purpose of obfuscate.

A good proportion of vampires with inherent + stealth also have . I assume that is intentional, as part of card design.

Josef von Bauren
Spider-Killer
Nergal (Advanced)
Lucretia Cess Queen
Kemintiri (Advanecd)
Dimitri Borodin ()
Cyscek
Appius Claudius Corvus (well , which is a stealth discipline)
William Biltmore
Viktor the Night General ()
Porphyrion
Iniko the Black Lion (another case of )
Harold Zettler
Black Annis
Aristotle de Laurent
Lord Fianna
Raful al-Zarqa ()

It is far, far rarer to have innate +1 stealth for a vampire without stealth disciplines. (Jost, Muaziz, Rebekka, Gerald, Stephen, Ambrogino Advanced).

So Cyscek having +1 stealth and is actually more the norm, rather than the exception.

Plus, has its uses. Great in War Ghoul decks for near-unblockability (Forgotten Labyrinth gives you massive stealth). Or you can Cloak/Veil War Ghouls for more reliable attacks. Mask of a Thousand Faces (with any weenies) can help you move faster. You can vote better with Old Friends + Animal Magnetism. Of you can do stealth bleed with extra Obfuscate stealth, plus Soul Decoration to totally hose Auspex.

Then they get a random 8-cap Cardinal with AUS ani vic, that gets DOM as an out-clan. Now, if he had aus ani VIC DOM he'd make some sort of sense (as little as it would be), but dominate serves zero purpose on him since he already has AUS anyway. Lack of DOM friends (and VIC for that matter) makes governing kinda suboptimal. Now if he actually had obfuscate or even VIC he could star in title-based vote-deck but as is, not so much.

Yeah, hurts, but at least he still finds his way into decks (unlike Violet Tremaine).

You get a sprinkling of with Rustovitch and Ana Rita. The makes for a viable Tzimisce Presence vote deck in Group 3/4 with Velya and the Rose. Having an 8-cap and a 9-cap Cardinal both with out-of-clan is pretty good. (Group 2 previously had Lambach, but Radu costs 2 less pool). Radu also has some potential friends from other clans, most notably the Ventrue Antitribu and Tremere Antitribu (several of whom have varying degrees of , , or ).

I think your best bet is probably an deck with Radu, Malgorzata, Nickolai, Virstania, and Enid Blount).

Or an big voter deck with Tremere Antitribu (Ladislas, Orlando, Malgorzata), Ventrue Antitribu (Jesse, Polly Kay), maybe even Epikasta and Troius.

Radu could be better - a lot better. But don't forget he is tied for the cheapest Cardinal (with Klaus). He'd probably be a better vampire if he lost the special and got another discipline point (making him closer to Klaus). But he has his uses.

Who in their right mind would trade;

Little Tailor of Prague that pretty reliably can reach +2/+3 stealth with just to recruit warghouls for group 4/5 and just to gain a little bit extra stealth?

group 4/5 is trash aside from the situations where you look through available vamps and happens to find a Tzimisce that fits that situation non-clan based deck.

chaitan wrote:

Who in their right mind would trade;

Little Tailor of Prague that pretty reliably can reach +2/+3 stealth with just to recruit warghouls for group 4/5 and just to gain a little bit extra stealth?

Someone who wants their War Ghoul to be rushing at +1 or +2 stealth?

Your affirmation on group 5 is a bit humorous, there is two gr5 Tzimisce, one of which that is pretty correct at the least

Without that, you should better talk like Isaak, because you don't really have strong argument citing one vampire, without any other consideration. What if my deck don't recruit warghoul ? Or desesperately need to get some action throught, like the aforementionned Nightmare curse ?