Most failed and best implementation of the Lore into Vtes

wastaz wrote:

Also, the !Tremere annoys me so much that I can hardly put it into words.

Its kind of interesting though that no one has yet mentioned the politics system. Sabbar archbishops and camarilla princes actually "voting" in a referendum instead of trying to eat each others faces? Very unlikely.

I agree about !Tremere. I don't understand why it was so important to include them in the Sabbat when there are already SO MANY Sabbat clans. the Sabbat has Sabbat-only clans, why can't the Camarilla have one too? Plus the Sabbat hated Thaumaturgy. The Camarilla is down to six clans, but no, there has to be a strong !Tremere antitribu clan. They should have stayed dead after Sabbat War.

Then again, I think that the Sabbat set should have been the Tzimisce/Lasombra/Pander set with a few antitribu thrown in.

The political system in the original Jyhad/VTES set made a lot of internal sense. The game was about Camarilla vampires in the United States jockeying for influence. It made sense that titled Camarilla vampires could affect the political actions of other Camarilla vampires inhabiting the same geographical region.

It doesn't make sense that a vampire would be able to influence politics outside of his own sect. Why would the Camarilla care about a cardinal from the Sabbat when deciding if someone seizes praxis? Heck, why would American vampires have much influence in Europe? However for game balance reasons, it had to be that way. I don't really think the original game mechanics were designed with multiple sects in mind.

Of course, I always thought the Sabbat organization in the RPG was poorly conceived. I think it was devised as a way to create a meta-plot for high-ranking Camarilla players and of course to sell books and more character concepts to players. I could buy how the Camarilla operated, but not the Sabbat. The sourcebooks maintained that mortals didn't know that vampires existed, but the Sabbat was dominant in many highly developed areas such as Eastern Canada and US where they mass-embraced mortals and openly used mortals as playthings while not caring about the Masquerade. And the Sabbat operates by having older vampires manipulate packs of younger vampires as fodder, which is exactly what the anarch rebellion that the Sabbat was formed from was supposed to be against.

the Aye/Orun system implementation for the Laibon is hilariously bad. it is kind of the equivalent of Humanity for Camarilla vampires, which is represented by one card - "Humanitas," while Aye/Orun are individual resource cards with too much cardtext

on the positive side, I really like the Blood Brothers and their sanguinus cards. it really gives a great impression of these vampires who constantly support each other and work as a hive mind, so it's like controlling one single complicated multi-part vampire. they're one of my favorite clans for how fun they are.

Aaron wrote:

I agree about !Tremere. I don't understand why it was so important to include them in the Sabbat when there are already SO MANY Sabbat clans. the Sabbat has Sabbat-only clans, why can't the Camarilla have one too? Plus the Sabbat hated Thaumaturgy. The Camarilla is down to six clans, but no, there has to be a strong !Tremere antitribu clan. They should have stayed dead after Sabbat War.

It was grandfathered in because the Sabbat set was created during 2nd Edition (when there were Tremere Antitribu). Just like how the very existence of antitribu clans was from 2nd Edition. If White Wolf could have done it differently, they would not have had separate antitribu clans, there probably wouldn't be Sabbat Tremere, and the !Ventrue would have .

But they were left with a legacy of older, WotC era, older VtM edition stuff. They chose to integrate and expand on it, rather than trying to revamp or replace it.

Following the whims of the RPG writers and the canon metaplot (such as in the case of the !Tremere, Ahrimanes, and Ravnos) probably would not have been the best idea for balance purposes.

The political system in the original Jyhad/VTES set made a lot of internal sense. The game was about Camarilla vampires in the United States jockeying for influence. It made sense that titled Camarilla vampires could affect the political actions of other Camarilla vampires inhabiting the same geographical region.

That also describes First Edition VtM pretty well, which was all Camarilla focused.

Of course, I always thought the Sabbat organization in the RPG was poorly conceived. I think it was devised as a way to create a meta-plot for high-ranking Camarilla players and of course to sell books and more character concepts to players. I could buy how the Camarilla operated, but not the Sabbat.

Originally, the Sabbat were just a boogeyman antagonist for the main characters. It was only with later editions that they fleshed things out more.

Aaron wrote:

It doesn't make sense that a vampire would be able to influence politics outside of his own sect. Why would the
Camarilla care about a cardinal from the Sabbat when deciding if someone seizes praxis? Heck, why would American vampires have much influence in Europe? However for game balance reasons, it had to be that way. I don't really think the original game mechanics were designed with multiple sects in mind.

As I have said already, it does make a lot of sense in both way. Sabbat can't just ignore Villon, like Iran can't ignore USA.

Look at international politics. Being ennemy don't mean you only interact with open war. Even during wars the politics can still play a role, as have shown the WW2.

Aaron wrote:

I could buy how the Camarilla operated, but not the Sabbat. The sourcebooks maintained that mortals didn't know that vampires existed, but the Sabbat was dominant in many highly developed areas such as Eastern Canada and US where they mass-embraced mortals and openly used mortals as playthings while not caring about the Masquerade.

I believe it's taking the sourcebook too litteraly. Sabbat vampire don't try to get the human to kill themselves, they just do thing a lot more crudely and also cover them up more crudely. Dominate, the general tone of WoD, and the natural resistance of human against surnaturel finish the job.

I have almost never seen PCs that were not trying to go Sabbat instead of Camarilla. Simply because the camarilla system is much more about manipulation and senseless sacrifice of subordinate where Sabbat is about organisation and obedience (that include sacrifice too).

In the sabbat, you *know* the local archbishop is here to be a general / tyrant, not the "mayor" facade of princes of the camarilla. PCs are often ready to be soldier that can die, but not pawn that can be killed for some greater plan. Of course, in the sabbat. Or even better, be their own chief, and then again it's much easier in the Sabbat than the Camarilla.

(the comment about Sabbat being youngster being manipulated by old vampire does not correspond to either my vision or the books I have read ; it's the camarilla that does this)

Also, from a PC point of view, Sabbat have a cause. Not camarilla. I alway have a lot of time to make people want to help Villon or some random Justicar in some seemingly random plot, while goal like freeing country from camarilla, killing ancient, or preventing the Gehenna are more likely to work)

(to finish that : I don't talk about anarch. That's because they seem so silly and so far from human anarch that they often serve as scapegoat and general mockery object in my gaming circle. I fully understand that this is a big case of "You Mileage May Vary", and let people have their opinions on the exact difference between Anarch and Sabbat)

I think that nearly everything was translated into vtes format quite well. except necromancy. thaum was several different things/paths crammed into one discipline, and its very useful. you have combat like crazy, multiacting (rutors hand) perfect toolboxing (magic of the smith), stealth (mirror walk), minion augmentation (biothaum experiment), and even selective minion hampering (seeds of corruption). not as diverse as every branch of thaum, but solid and balanced for game reasons.
then you have necromancy. not nearly as much utility. in combat, you can end combat, shoot agg with breath of thanatos, set range, or maybe punch with dead hand. you have spot stealth or intercept in one combo card, a block fails and little else in utility. kill an ally or weenie with chair of hades, take an action to not get torped by agg poke with chill of oblivion. one of the possesion actions, limited in utility as it gets. then necro's only solid niche in the game, in my opinion, is making shambling hordes. necor is alot of paths, and i don't think the nagaraja should be limited to just what the giovani have access to, considering very specified paths that exist.
i also would have liked some sort of cappadocian implementation for harbingers, trogloditia, and lady constancia. but thats just nitpicking.
the anti-clans is a little frustrating since all nosferatu are in the same boat avoiding the nictuku, and i don't think the madness network stops working for sabbat malks, but i can cope. abominations are printed very sparsely, which is appropriate.
i'd like to see certain advanced cards, even advanced versions that are dark-ages specific in theme (william biltmore being prince of cardiff) or maybe just cards that imply bloodlines didn't completely die out (a laibon, bahari harbinger who is female, gets -1 stealth when hunting and had FOR NEC POT, a surviving Lamia in africa perhaps)
some disciplines are just better than others, so i'm fine with vtes continuing that, i just feel that necro is an even weaker support discipline than PRO, which is only truly a support disciple(little of everything, more or less, not the best of any of it, other than combat ends). just a small push for necro would be great (expendable blocking ally between underbridge stray and unleash hells fury level of good, showing angry spirits you can shake up to hamper enemies, or maybe combat cards that put your opponent at a disadvantage due to similar ghostly help)
its an amazing game and i really liked the rpg as well. sticking with the theme of the game, taking actions at stealth to undermine the resources of your prey is the most effective way to an oust and the fastest way to gain the ire of anyone concerned by it. past that, voting, combat bullying, and "block everything" approaches are generally thematically appropriate.
had the rpg continued, vtes may have been switching !tremere slots in sets for !salubri, and ravnos would have become rarer. possibly (judging from the 20th anniversary book) gargoyles would fill the void left in the cam by the Gangrel leaving, and the remaining children of Cappadocious would become more focused on a war against the Giovanni.
there are obviously cards i'd like to see, but (barring non-kindred minions) most things in vtes are thematically accurate enough for me not to get upset about.
thoughts?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

or maybe just cards that imply bloodlines didn't completely die out (a laibon, bahari harbinger who is female, gets -1 stealth when hunting and had FOR NEC POT, a surviving Lamia in africa perhaps)

Yeah. I've always thought that of the remaining clans/bloodlines that don't already show up in VTES, the Lamia would actually be the easiest to implement. Scarce (obviously). With , maybe some sort of synergy with Harbingers or Samedi (something along the lines of Slave status or specials that synergize well). And ironically, they would end up working well with Giovanni Proxy Kissed themed decks.

The other bloodline/clan I can think of is the Lhiannan, but that would require a new discipline (Ogham) and I think we have enough disciplines for now.

Of course both the Lamia and Lhiannan would fit nicely with any sort of Bahari/Lilith theme.

i just feel that necro is an even weaker support discipline than PRO, which is only truly a support disciple(little of everything, more or less, not the best of any of it, other than combat ends). just a small push for necro would be great

I agree that is one of the weakest non-bloodlines disciplines. I'd even say it's worse than . But is worse than ? Hmmm...probably not....