Lilith's Blessing : Propositions for a new text

When I see this card I see a way to a vampire become a Bahari, the discpline and blood gain is secondary.

Bullexcrement, if that were the case it would be in line with cards that make you anarch or black hand or even laibon. As the card is now or what you suggest, Bahari can only be a negative to be balance. While it is true Go Anarch and Mozambique Allure untap you, they are both action cards. Twilight Camp and Seattle Committee are a better starting point for Lilith's Blessing, if Bahari was the reason and not blood gain/skill card.

It is all about the secondary effects. You neither are or aren't Bahari. That is all.

I agree completely with Wedge.

If we aren't going to see a huge pile of Bahari related cards (yay YET another mechanic that will probably go nowhere compared with... Bleed & Vote & Flick) that create viable Tier 1 Decks then Lilith's Blessing will be played for:

1) Fetching disciplines
2) 3 free blood once per minion


The game already has a mechanic for adding in 'free blood' it's called Hunting. The only comparable hunts to Lilith's Blessing are Abactor , Vulture's Buffet and Ghost-Eater . These are actions. Why should Lilith's Blessing NOT be an action?

Fetching a Discipline is a limited skill, usually on a vampire's text like Lord Ashton. Again, there are very few cards that allow for Discipline searching (most of them are 'new minions'). Searching for a discipline should be just like Lord Ashton's text... requiring an action.


I can't see a reason why this card shouldn't provide a Hunt Action and a Discipline. Plus, if 'Bahari' is going to end up being something that exists only to stop Lilith's Blessing work twice, then we can do the same thing by forcing the discipline card to be put on the minion. Either the Library will contain a wide number of disciplines OR it will work at most twice because of the limit of Discipline cards to be put on when a Superior discipline is on a minion.

Ohlmann wrote:

And it's also a good way to have to do another fix next year.

That's why I said:

fredsct wrote:

If the problem with the card is ONLY that it's too easy to trigger with a Villein.

You're only going to need to do another fix next year if there's another problem with the card. Do you see any other problem? If so, you should say what that is so people can 1) respond to your opinion about it if they disagree; or 2) make an effective new design that addresses it.

I agree: banning and reinserting a card over and over is very bad.

fredsct wrote:

For a specific problem, it's simplest to make a specific fix.

I snipped it, but your suggested card text defines Villein as broken -- just like Into Thin Air defines "itself+Lost In Crowds" as broken -- so why not leave Lilith's alone at that point, and just fix (or ban) Villein?

Note that I don't agree with this AT ALL but that's what you're doing by saying "This card prohibits this other card over here."

I see Lilith's as being 5% of the problem and Villein as 95%, so I dislike this entire thread. But I appreciate Pascal's willingness to entertain us with bread and circuses.

KevinM wrote:

...your suggested card text defines Villein as broken -- just like Into Thin Air defines "itself+Lost In Crowds" as broken

I disagree. It defines the combination of the effects of the two cards taken together as broken based on the synergestic effects of the combination. For example, given the effects of Vox Domini, no one ought to mind a card like:

Vox Mortis
Only usable during the referendum of a political action. Not usable on a referendum that is automatically passes. 100 votes are cast against the referendum. Each Methuselah may play only one Vox Mortus OR one Vox Domini per game.

The problem with Vox Mortis which would probably get it banned, however, is the existance of Elder Kindred Network. Without EKN, Vox Mortis is perfectly fine, I think. So which is the problem: Vox Mortis or EKN?

IMO, the synergistic effects of two cards combined can be a problem where either single card is not necessarily a problem.

For my part, I don't even see the synergy between LB and Villein to be a problem, let alone either card by itself. But, as you point out, here we are. I just think the discussion of "What's the problem?" helps answer the question of "What's the solution?" Whether you agree with my opinion of synergic effects or not, I think that point is a good contribution.

Kevin, it painful, but i have to agree with you that villein creates like 489 problems by itself, and liliths blessing is only onexof those problems. But i also have to admit that villein enables many decks. I feel lb without villein enables "fairer" decks than villein without lb, but both got printed.

Juggernaut, im not entirely disagreeing with you, and if lb enabled a hunt action adding a discipline, we could kill bahari from thexrules, and keep blessing away from bahari, justclike path if lilith.

But maybe another angle. If the prerequesit is "non-bahari, non-ready vampire who is not at full capacity" rewarding those who have suffered. "Search your library for a master dicipline card and place it on that vampire. Move that vampire to your ready region, and he or she may burn one blood to untap."

We have a card not farming pool, not really useful with villein, and needs setup, or shitty luck in absence of that. Id say, if anything, bringing a minion above ground once a game per minion is an entirely differentcproblem. Maybe tack on a pool cost, make them redlist oncexthey pop back up, and we havexa new avenue.

But honestly, id rather just have a card that taps and adds a skill card.