Pentex Subversion Poll #2 and Discussion

Squidalot wrote:

Walls at least interact with the table be that balanced or not - Una/Gerald and friends do very little interaction & whilst that deck exists pentex needs to stay along with Di etc as it's one a limited number of ways out to stop a very unfriendly deck being played.

Good insight. Let's put out a card that hoses mulit-acting monster decks (see below) and ban Pentex Subversion.

At Every Turn
Master
Cost: 1
Unique. Put this card on any ready minion. The minion with this card can only attempt to take one action each turn. The minion with this card can only attempt to block once each turn.

Interesting Aaron - it looks like a straight forward design to fix a two key concerns in one.

Personally i'm of the view that designing new cards to fix specific problem cards ends up creating more problems [Villein was partly designed to hose minion tap]

i'd rather kick Una and Ankara Citadel [or re-word though that's less friendly without reprints]just because it's neater and they don't add a lot to the game

Squidalot wrote:

Interesting Aaron - it looks like a straight forward design to fix a two key concerns in one.

Personally i'm of the view that designing new cards to fix specific problem cards ends up creating more problems [Villein was partly designed to hose minion tap]

i'd rather kick Una and Ankara Citadel [or re-word though that's less friendly without reprints]just because it's neater and they don't add a lot to the game

I have less of a problem with pentexthan a non-uniqu freak drive killer. I may have wanted to govern down and rescue. But some weenie deck out-minions me with march halcyon and friends by packing 4-6 of these.

Im all for editing stuff, una is bad, but ankara could easily do the first copy of rach card you play or something. And again, i havet seen una in awhile on. Tourney table

ReverendRevolver wrote:

I have less of a problem with pentexthan a non-uniqu freak drive killer.

The hastily designed card I proposed is unique.

Squidalot wrote:

*snip* key discussions with a large and diverse group of people [anyone who would listen to Brian Moritz] around the EC were actually:
4) ban the card and replace with a a new card(s) that do the important things we need.

OK, fine. Ban it then. But that is most definitely not what Johannes had mentioned on facebook.

As I said earlier in this thread, I'm not quite to that point yet because I think that the breaking walls part is more important than the locking down multi-acting decks.

Here's why:

Every untap requires a card, such as Freak Drive.

But some multiple block attempts require a single card, such as No Secrets from the Magaji.

The original balancing mechanism for blocking was the Do Not Replace clause on Wake with Evening's Freshness. You might still have untapped minions to block with, but you wouldn't have any cards in hand for them to play. Somewhere along the line that disappeared (hello NSftM and Eyes of Argus), and walls became extremely powerful.

You're also barking up the tree on the 'pentex to break walls is essential but the single multi acting vampires is also good' it's definitely the other way round.
Walls at least interact with the table be that balanced or not - Una/Gerald and friends do very little interaction & whilst that deck exists pentex needs to stay along with Di etc as it's one a limited number of ways out to stop a very unfriendly deck being played.

If Una/Freak Drive and Gerald Windham/Ankara Citadel are bigger problems than perma-walls, then there are simple solutions to address them directly, neither of which involves changing Pentex Subversion.

And if you're concerned about a more expensive Pentex being only affordable by a non-interactive deck, then the non-interactive deck is the problem. Ban pool gain Ashur Tablets, Liquidation and/or Villein. That doesn't involve changing Pentex either.

But, if we are talking about changing Pentex (and that's the whole point of this thread), then errata is the worst possible option, which is why I called it out.

Yes, but is your problem with the wall the fact that you can't get around it to remove your own Pentex or because you don't take wall decks into account when you build bleed & vote decks?

If it's the Pentex... then maybe that's why Pentex needs editing.

If it's your default option for getting past a Wall Deck... Think outside the box and adapt your metagame without going for the 'obvious'.



The two wall-deck situations I've had in recent years were:
1) Draba Decks
2) Auspex Guns Decks

For both of those ideas, I've tried to develop a solution that is not the usual.

Against a dearth of Draba using decks I started playing Suppressing Fire + Zip Guns. Negative intercept, while working like more stealth, neuters the ability of Draba... Draba doesn't cancel negative intercept only positive stealth.

Against a tendency for Auspex Guns type decks, I started using Change of Target based tricks. One was corruption counters and started 'harvesting' the weenies. The other was Aching Beauty and big lunge bleeds. Both of them have had some success. Interestingly the Corruption deck has 0 red cards, one of the few decks I own where I walk into the breach without a combat plan in the world... Interestingly it tends not to die to combat.