question-circle Pentex Subversion Poll #2 and Discussion

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Poll: Possible fixes for Pentex Subversion (was ended 0000-00-00 00:00:00)

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16 Mar 2014 21:17 #60002 by Hakuron
I am (still) against banning Pentex Subversion, as long as only this single card is banned.
In my opinion, the problem would only be transferred into other problems. You would need to "re-design" V:tES as a whole to some extend to gain a solution worth the effort, at least this is what all these discussions seem to point out.

Pentex is a very "interactive" card. Usually, you cannot keep it for long if the table unites against you, even with MMPA and Anthelios. (Yes, this rarely happens, but this a "side effect" of play style, since removing a Pentex rarely helps in ousting a specific prey.)
Of course this changes dramatically the fewer player are still in the game. Somebody mentioned that Pentex helps ousting players and that a gamewin happens -- the goal of V:tES. Yes, Pentex games can be boring or "unfair", but a lot of V:tES games can be ...

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18 Mar 2014 11:50 #60056 by jamesatzephyr

Pentex is a very "interactive" card. Usually, you cannot keep it for long if the table unites against you, even with MMPA and Anthelios. (Yes, this rarely happens, but this a "side effect" of play style, since removing a Pentex rarely helps in ousting a specific prey.)


Really? The very best plays I can remember seeing of Pentex have almost all been for lunges, where it's really not "interactive". You play the card now, and your aim is to oust your prey now, and the card goes away. Or maybe after your hopefully devastating assault, the player holds on for maybe another turn, but by then the damage is done, because you only need to get one more action through, that sort of thing.

Are you - or your fellow players - playing it too early, just because it's available?

Examples of players describing how you should be using it for the lunge, when it is essentially not interactive at all:

Peter Bakija :

More often than not, what I see Pentex do is totally end someone who
is teetering on the edge and has a carefully calculated defense set
up, and then *wham*, Pentex puts a big hole in whatever plan was
there, and they get whacked.


Fred Scott (in the same discussion):

9 out of 10 times I get a Pentex played on me, I get ousted before
I have my next master phase.


Ben Peal , talking about its intended use (which is sometimes foiled by players having, you know, things in their deck you're not expecting):

There were times
where I could Pentex the key vamp but still not get the oust that
turn, and I'd be left wondering how to get a second lunge through.
Also, there's only one Pentex in the deck (one is certainly free to
add more), and I would've liked more than one such option.


Peter again , talking about stealthless Dominate:

Really though, such a deck is about a victory lunge, rather than
consistent big bleeds--you defend yourself and bleed for 1 a bunch.
Eventually, your prey is in lunge range, and then you tap him out or
Pentex Subversion or something, and bleed for 12 in a single turn with
4 minions.


Matt Morgan explains his thinking about Pentex and friends, specifically regarding a bruisey-bleedy sort of play style, where you never quite get your prey dead enough to push through those couple of bleeds for three:

Often decks like this use cards like Anarch Troublemaker or Pentex
Subversion when going in for the kill. The reason is that when your prey
is finally low enough on pool to oust, odds are he will leave up blockers
to die valiently to buy him another turn or two. With your oust delayed,
you could end up with troubles of your own. Also, other players can
basically deny you any hope of ever ousting by repeatedly rescuing your
prey's vampires. The ability to remove blockers when you're ready to
lunge can mean the difference between the game win and "I almost had him."


John Best , firefighting a horrible table. (Note the post is by Hugh, but they're John's notes.)

When it was my turn again, I made my lunge. I put Pentex on Shalmath,
leaving Floppy with a single auspex weenie tapped, and another unable
to untap under an anima gathering. I bled hard, and Floppy was unable
to draw into a bounce. I'd got my VP.

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18 Mar 2014 17:32 #60070 by Zoroh

I don't know if there is a single player with 8 Sense Deps in Sydney... I'm sure my regulars don't have more than 2 with any single player and I doubt there is 8 between us. So, most players never have to experience the frustrating nature of dunking Gabrin when he's Sense Dep'd you... because oh wait, that minion you just got out to try dunk Gabrin just got Sense Dep'd too... and the 10 Apparitions (or Illusions of the Kindred) in that deck mean you NEVER get to dunk Gabrin...


We've got a player in our meta playing the same "Gabrin and his 16 Sense Dep" for the last 12 months. In EVERY F***ING tournament. It's freaking frustrating.
We don't aim for the GW anymore, just for his head...

Keep walking...
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18 Mar 2014 17:48 - 18 Mar 2014 17:58 #60071 by ReverendRevolver

I don't know if there is a single player with 8 Sense Deps in Sydney... I'm sure my regulars don't have more than 2 with any single player and I doubt there is 8 between us. So, most players never have to experience the frustrating nature of dunking Gabrin when he's Sense Dep'd you... because oh wait, that minion you just got out to try dunk Gabrin just got Sense Dep'd too... and the 10 Apparitions (or Illusions of the Kindred) in that deck mean you NEVER get to dunk Gabrin...


We've got a player in our meta playing the same "Gabrin and his 16 Sense Dep" for the last 12 months. In EVERY F***ING tournament. It's freaking frustrating.
We don't aim for the GW anymore, just for his head...


Id aim for my card boxes, dementation, and grab some blessings of chaos.

A local player tried to build a "sense dep the table" deck after buying loads of the set they were in(i guess they used to be stupid cheap?) But eventually realized its one thing to do it, another thing to WIN afterwords.

Weenie dbr is the same in my mind, though. Eating Gabrin is actually easier than stopping 9 weenies most days...

But, pentex is far from as bad as "cheesetastically painful" entire decks.

As far as the pentex discussion, if we all got paid to do this (wouldnt that be nice? I say it like that because of the time needed for this:) we could gather 50 ish players with pre-existing decks, making sure some at least run pentex, and record when its played, the gamestate, and of course the playerz intent when its played.

Just a guess, we would get 45-55% lunge, 35-45% defensive/disabling, and maybe 5% contesting or "other"

The heinous pentex screw and oust will always stick out as more memorable, due to the salt involved. But its other uses are real things, sometimes on par with the lunge use.

Again, just a guess, but its used (Ice seen it! ;) ) for other stuff.

Theres still the discussion of how much that matters, though......
Last edit: 18 Mar 2014 17:58 by ReverendRevolver.
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18 Mar 2014 18:36 - 18 Mar 2014 18:37 #60076 by AaronC

Yes, Pentex games can be boring or "unfair", but a lot of V:tES games can be ...


You don't make a strong argument in favor of Pentex here.

I have seen other players' games get hosed because of Pentex and thought "that's really stupid."

I recently played a game in which my prey decided to try some of the DM cards. His first vampire was Bronwen who promptly got Pentexed. I got a couple of rounds of non-stealth Legal Manipulation bleeds against him until finally, finally, his grandprey was able to remove Pentex. I just thought the whole thing made the game boring and unfortunate for him. If Bronwen could have acted to try to remove the Pentex herself, at least he would have had something to do.

Sensory Deprivation is different from Pentex. Sense Dep (as we're speaking of it) requires a minion with superior Chimerstry, it is a 0 stealth action that can be blocked, it requires 3 blood. The Sense Depped minion can still act and block (although of course not untapping is a huge deal). Pentex requires 2 blood and a master phase.
Last edit: 18 Mar 2014 18:37 by AaronC.

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18 Mar 2014 19:22 #60079 by Hakuron

Yes, Pentex games can be boring or "unfair", but a lot of V:tES games can be ...


You don't make a strong argument in favor of Pentex here.

I agree with you on that. It was not supposed to be a "strong" argument.

But Pentex Subversion is not the only thing "evil" out there (as various players already mentioned), and often enough it depends on a players personality or playing style, which cards are "evil" or not. To some degree, I am used to either pentex someone or get pentexed. It is part of the game to me.

Of course, it does not have to be that way, but I do not have a problem with it, at least by now ... ;)

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