Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.

Kushiel wrote:

henrik wrote:

So you don't think that it's a problem that the rules creates different environments for players depending on whether or not they sleeve their decks?
That the rules allows for an advantage (be it minor or not) to some players, depending on whether or not they sleeve their decks?

This is the wall we keep bumping into.

You're assuming that "mixed backs" = "advantage."

I don't make that assumption. I agree that it's potentially true, but not that it's automatically true.

The condition for that to be true is deliberate cheating on the part of the person building a deck such that they're using mixed backs to create an unfair advantage, such as the "all my Freak Drives are Jyhad cards and all my Jyhad cards are Freak Drives" situation from upthread.

Did you read my post about the problems with "sufficiently mixed card types" ?
Even with a perfect mix (50% of the deck with each type (and that's going with the low stuff, since there's quite good diffrerences in colour between sets, something the tournament rules acknowledges)) you will be guessing your top deck card from a pile of 45 cards instead of 90 (or 30 instead of 60, or whichever ratio you use).
In most of my games I play (or discard) some cards in the hopes of the top deck of my library being something I need at that point. Might be a wake, might be a bounce, might be a Villein. To increase my chances of knowing what card I'll draw next is an advantage. Having 50% of my deck with a different back would increase my chances of "topdecking" quite a lot. If the top card is Jyhad, I know it's not the Villein that I really need. I can't help that I know it. I can't pretend that I don't know it. The information would be staring at me, whether I like it or not.

Kushiel wrote:

But, as I mentioned above, that behavior is easier to catch than someone who's cheating by using marked sleeves, and doesn't impinge upon others' desire to not use sleeves if they don't want to (as well as my own). And since the current rule already defines that behavior as cheating, we already have a rule in place to prevent it. So adding a rule that decks must be sleeved is adding a rule that doesn't functionally do anything since what it's meant to prevent is already prevented by the current rule. Incidentally, that new rule would actually make me violate another rule, that of deck randomization, since I can't sufficiently randomize a sleeved deck. Admittedly, that's a side concern to what we're talking about here, but I think it's an example of a nontrivial knock-on effect that would occur as a result of chaning a rule that already accomplishes its given purpose.

I think marking cards without sleeves could be made about as hard to catch. Unless you inspect the decks closely I'm guessing that both ways would pass for normal play (assuming the cheater is good at what xe's doing).

Kushiel wrote:

henrik wrote:

The problem could also be solved be allowing differently coloured sleeves, though. But when I asked about that, Pascal said it wasn't allowed and KevinM called me out as a cheater.

And Pascal explained why that's the case - one is the fault of the publishers of the game, but the other is due to deliberate intention on the part of a particular player. I know that you and Xaddam keep saying that you don't care about player intentionality, but that doesn't mean that player intentionality doesn't matter.

But why should I trust people with differently backed cards not to use the information available to them if I'm not to be trusted with the same thing myself?
Why only extend that good faith to one group of people?

Huh. "Cancel post" button doesn't seem to work.

I don't think I've got much else to say on the topic, and my mental energy to debate it has run out. I think all of the stuff brought up in the previous two posts has already been addressed, so I'll just bow out here.

This cheating discussion is leading nowhere.

I think point of this discussion should be this:

henrik wrote:

If the top card is Jyhad, I know it's not the Villein that I really need. I can't help that I know it. I can't pretend that I don't know it. The information would be staring at me, whether I like it or not.

Do people think situations (there is sure more examples) like this create unfair advantage for one player? Or is this advantage too minor to enforce sleeving?

Surreal wrote:

This cheating discussion is leading nowhere.

I think point of this discussion should be this:

henrik wrote:

If the top card is Jyhad, I know it's not the Villein that I really need. I can't help that I know it. I can't pretend that I don't know it. The information would be staring at me, whether I like it or not.

Do people think situations (there is sure more examples) like this create unfair advantage for one player? Or is this advantage too minor to enforce sleeving?

I think that advantage can be significant. Lets take standard Girls deck player with full blood Cybele in play and player just had been bled to low pool. Player starts turn with some pool costing master in hand. Do player want to play the master card hoping to draw villein and survive? If player sees top card is jyhad he will never do that. I don't even think this example is so extreme.

Surreal wrote:

This cheating discussion is leading nowhere.

I think point of this discussion should be this:

henrik wrote:

If the top card is Jyhad, I know it's not the Villein that I really need. I can't help that I know it. I can't pretend that I don't know it. The information would be staring at me, whether I like it or not.

Do people think situations (there is sure more examples) like this create unfair advantage for one player? Or is this advantage too minor to enforce sleeving?

It's not one player. It's everyone at the table. If you're playing with differently backed cards that will give all players at the table information as well (not the exact same information, but still potentially useful information).

Also, allowing differently coloured sleeves would grant everyone the option of using this information (in my opinion it would be worse for the game overall, but still better than the current rules). Of course, the sleeves would have to be identical in all ways except for colour. Mixing different sizes or textures would lead to an advantage the other way around.