Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.
06 Dec 2011 18:16 #17283
by henrik
Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards. was created by henrik
4.1 in the tournament rules states that
What does "significant advantage" mean?
Does the usage of the word "significant" indicate that minor advantages from using cards with different backs is ok?
In a grander perspective, why isn't sleeves mandatory for tournament play (at least when using cards with different backs)?
If cards with distinct backs are used in the same deck (e.g., Jyhad and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle cards, or upside-down 3rd Edition cards and right-side up cards, or mis-cut cards) are used, in order to prevent a significant advantage, all cards from the different sets, printings, etc. must be of sufficiently mixed card type.
What does "significant advantage" mean?
Does the usage of the word "significant" indicate that minor advantages from using cards with different backs is ok?
In a grander perspective, why isn't sleeves mandatory for tournament play (at least when using cards with different backs)?
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06 Dec 2011 18:44 #17291
by KevinM
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
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Replied by KevinM on topic Re: Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.
Pascal: I would agree that the phrase "in order to prevent a significant advantage" should be striken from this sentence.
Henrik: Sleeves are not mandatory because a)it would provide a barrier to entry to some players, and b)because you don't assume that players are guilty and create institutional rules stating such (see: the 'Mandatory Deck Lists' discussion)
Henrik: Sleeves are not mandatory because a)it would provide a barrier to entry to some players, and b)because you don't assume that players are guilty and create institutional rules stating such (see: the 'Mandatory Deck Lists' discussion)
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kushiel
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06 Dec 2011 19:08 - 06 Dec 2011 19:08 #17295
by Xaddam
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
Replied by Xaddam on topic Re: Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.
It's not a particularly big barrier and demanding it for tournament play doesn't seem too excessive, I don't think.a)it would provide a barrier to entry to some players
If it was a real hassle, I could see your point. But as it is sleeving takes 10 minutes and costs you 10 dollars the first time. Also, during tournament play I think we should value the integrity of the competition over our insecurities.b)because you don't assume that players are guilty and create institutional rules stating such (see: the 'Mandatory Deck Lists' discussion)
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
Last edit: 06 Dec 2011 19:08 by Xaddam. Reason: formatting
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06 Dec 2011 20:19 #17308
by Kushiel
I've never heard anyone complain about the cost of sleeves.
I have heard some people complain about the time taken to sleeve decks, but not many.
Most of the complaints about sleeves that I've heard, including mine, are that it's unnecessarily difficult to shuffle a sleeved deck of cards (at least when it comes to a deck as big as a VTES library).
This makes it sound as though you're against mandatory sleeving, though I don't know if "the competition" refers to our opponents or the competition inherent in the game itself. If the latter, then sleeves should be disallowed entirely, since it's easier to cheat with sleeves than without them.
Replied by Kushiel on topic Re: Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.
If it was a real hassle, I could see your point. But as it is sleeving takes 10 minutes and costs you 10 dollars the first time.
I've never heard anyone complain about the cost of sleeves.
I have heard some people complain about the time taken to sleeve decks, but not many.
Most of the complaints about sleeves that I've heard, including mine, are that it's unnecessarily difficult to shuffle a sleeved deck of cards (at least when it comes to a deck as big as a VTES library).
Also, during tournament play I think we should value the integrity of the competition over our insecurities.
This makes it sound as though you're against mandatory sleeving, though I don't know if "the competition" refers to our opponents or the competition inherent in the game itself. If the latter, then sleeves should be disallowed entirely, since it's easier to cheat with sleeves than without them.
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06 Dec 2011 20:33 #17310
by Xaddam
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
Replied by Xaddam on topic Re: Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.
Did you try shuffling sleeves with artwork or a pattern? They're really bad, I agree. If you tried it with single-sheet back, I guess we can only agree to disagree. Shuffling with proper sleeves is so much easier than without sleeves.Most of the complaints about sleeves that I've heard, including mine, are that it's unnecessarily difficult to shuffle a sleeved deck of cards (at least when it comes to a deck as big as a VTES library).
I mean competition in the meaning of the tournament rules, games and scene. Which would indeed be 'the latter'. I see you're being intentionally inflammatory. I'm sure you know why I think mixing jyhad backings with vtes backings might be misused. How do you mean sleeves facilitates cheating? (Which can't be proven after the fact, of course.)This makes it sound as though you're against mandatory sleeving, though I don't know if "the competition" refers to our opponents or the competition inherent in the game itself. If the latter, then sleeves should be disallowed entirely, since it's easier to cheat with sleeves than without them.
Adam Esbjörnsson,
Prince of Örebro
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06 Dec 2011 20:36 #17311
by henrik
Do you have any proof of this?
I'd say it seems much easier to cheat with unsleeved cards due to the (sometimes very big) color difference between many of the sets.
Replied by henrik on topic Re: Tournament rules regarding different backs on cards.
[...] it's easier to cheat with sleeves than without them.
Do you have any proof of this?
I'd say it seems much easier to cheat with unsleeved cards due to the (sometimes very big) color difference between many of the sets.
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