Horrific Countenance

Megabaja wrote:

2.You haven't read text on the Forced Vigilance where "immediately" means after combat.

No.

Name: Forced Vigilance
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Fortitude[for] Only usable by a tapped vampire immediately after he or she blocks (play after combat, if any). Untap this reacting vampire.
Same card text for Cats' Guidance.

The important text is in bold. Text between parenthesis is not reminder text.

Megabaja wrote:

3.You did not take into consideration Edge of The World, or the fact that POoT was errated a few months ago, while Horrific Countenance is a rarely played card, that was not errated even once for 15 years.

If you mean that Horrific Countenance hasn't been errated for 15 years, you're right. Until then, it follows the standard rulings.

Point 1 forbids playing Horrific Countenance after a block (no explicit clause such as "after he or she blocks")

Horrific Countenance
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Protean
Cost: 4 blood
Only usable when this vampire is blocked.
[pro] Untap the blocking minion. This action is not blocked, and it is now unblockable.

If you follow ruling no.1 then HC in not playable at all.

Block needs to occur for this card to be playable. Combat is a part of block.

The card has to be played before combat (if any) because it's not a combat card. And since its states "when this vampire is blocked.", you have to play it when (at the moment) the condition is met:
Vampire A is blocked by vampire B. Vampire A plays Horrific Countenance. Action is not blocked and is now unblockable.

There is no "would be blocked" clause, as there is no "playable after combat, if any" either. You (or somebody who does errata for cards) can take this card on a two different ways.

"would be blocked" is the most recent wording but means almost* the same thing for Horrific Countenance (whose text could be updated to match the most recent wording, but many cards are not updated).
*almost, because currently it triggers "when blocked" effects -- see the Gwyeed topic www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/30262-gwyedd-and-horrific-countenance, this may of course be subject to change if Horrific Countenance is errated. This is maybe a wording mistake (most probably) but one has to follow the current rules until it changes

I'm iplying that this card is more useful as expensive "action continues" than as expensive "block fails".

Moot. It's a subjective appreciation.

Suoli wrote:

Ankha wrote:

It's because either you're playing on words, or you don't get the idea.
You can't play cards before you have the impulse, sure. But you have to play Deflection in the window that opens immediately when the condition is met. So if one stays one step above the impulse level of detail, you have to play Deflection immediately after blocks are declined.

I don't understand where this immediacy comes from or how the word applies to the situation.

It comes for ruling #4.
Timing "after" means "immediately after".
timing "when" should mean "immediately when", contrary to "some time after the when condition is met".

Suoli wrote:

I can see how the concept could be accommodated without conflict by the known system of rules but not why or if it should be, seeing as how the system works without it.

Well, the system works with it. You play Deflection when blocks are declined, not later during the action.
Think about the following scenario:
A bleeds, B declines to block, A passes the impulse, B passes the impulse because he's expecting C to play Major Boon and prefers to keep his deflection. Everyone passes the impulse.
Now C plays Major Boon ("when another Methuselah {would be} successfully bled."), D Suddens it. B can't play Deflection at that point.

Suoli wrote:

To avoid a debate about semantics, I'll try to approach this on a more mechanical level.

It has been established that you have to play Deflection in the window that follows declining to block. It has also been established that you can play other cards and effects in the same window, before or after Deflection. Now, since a block is a window that starts at a successful block attempt and ends after action resolution, it stands to reason that you can play cards that use that window before or after playing other cards.

I agree. What I wanted to point out is that this whole window is "(immediately) when blocks are declined". Many things may happen in it, agreed, thus the feeling you don't play the card "immediately".

Megabaja wrote:

Text between parenthesis is not reminder text.

As I read thru cards and google groups, LSJ always confirmend that this kind of text is always reminder text.

Wrong. See Direct Intervention/Sudden Reversal vs Santaleous:
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/browse_thread/thread/ffb4e5efe1875a1d/64ca2ea8232830bd?lnk=gst&q=santaleous#64ca2ea8232830bd

Name: Sudden Reversal
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn.
Cancel a master card played by another Methuselah as it is played (no cost is paid).

Megabaja wrote:

And that not all reminder texts are in parenthesis. I must have been wrong all the time...

On that point, yes. I'm not really happy with non-reminder texts between parenthesis, but that's how it works.

Megabaja wrote:

Vampire A is blocked by vampire B. Vampire A plays Horrific Countenance.

When? Card text does not indicate that the card can be played before combat, and combat starts immediately after block is successful.

When? When the card tells so.
And no, combat doesn't start immediately after block if you play a card that must be played at that time. Eg. Obedience.

"would be blocked" is the most recent wording but means almost* the same thing for Horrific Countenance (whose text could be updated to match the most recent wording, but many cards are not updated).
*almost, because currently it triggers "when blocked" effects -- see the Gwyeed topic www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-que...orrific-countenance, this may of course be subject to change if Horrific Countenance is errated. This is maybe a wording mistake (most probably) but one has to follow the current rules until it changes

All I am saying is:
1. Currently, there's no errata for this card. So, wording "would be blocked" is as far away as "this action continues as unblocked" from the new card text. They both change how the card functions at the moment, because at the moment this card is unplayable, if we do not consider "play before combat" text, that also does not exist.

Indeed. That's why Horrific Countenance behaves differently than if it were worded "would be blocked".

2. I already pointed to the POoT and Edge of the World that do not have such text on them, and they were released after said ruling was made. In the meantime POoT was errated. I'm guessing that HC was not errated in the same manner because it is not played that much.

Wild guess, I don't know.

And what about Edge of the World? Is it playable after combat or not?

Currently no, unless I've missed a ruling/errata.